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About the Zune update, today's Apple news

Sep. 9, 2008 Paul Thurrott | Paul Thurrott's Supersite for Windows

So I'm in Redmond this week, as you may know. Yesterday, Microsoft was forced to prematurely announce the details of its upcoming Zune 3 platform when Fry's Electronics leaked details about the new devices and software features. (And here's that hi-res shot I was looking for.) To be clear, that is exactly what happened: Microsoft wasn't trying to "spoil" today's Apple event, at which the Cupertino company is expected to announce new iPods and a new version of iTunes. In fact, it's pretty obvious that Microsoft would have preferred to announce their new Zune wares after Apple.

Anyhoo. As ZDNet's Sam Diaz notes, today is a big day for Apple. Their event starts at 10:00 am PST. At that time, pretty precisely, I'll be talking to someone from the Zune team at the Microsoft campus. (They had Zune MVPs through campus yesterday.) It's a weird bit of timing, the Apple event and the meeting, that is, and not something I'd normally mention beforehand, but the cat is pretty much out of the bag on Zune 3, so there you go.

Regarding Apple's big day, it's pretty clear from the rumors that there's not much planned, from a product standpoint, and I see this as just another example of how the iPod market is maturing. NYT's always-excellent blogger, Saul Hansell, put it this way this morning:

Expect a lot of socks at Apple’s event Tuesday. iPod Socks are the sort of brand building fluff that Apple talks about when it isn’t changing the fate of humanity.

What an excellent way to put it. But I think the reason this is indeed a big day for Apple is, frankly, Steve Jobs. People are curious about the guy's health, and for good reason. And while Apple's penchant for secrecy may work wonders for product launches, it's not doing much to overcome investor fears about Jobs. If he looks OK today, at least one analyst has predicted that Apple's stock will skyrocket. Fair enough.

I can't wait to see what Apple announces, though I'm worried it won't be all that exciting. And I'm very curious to talk with the Zune folks about their underrated platform.

Discuss this Article 165

Ocean
on Sep 9, 2008
>>Their advertising has always been iconic but alienating. It's been Chiat/Day most of the time since the legendary 1984 commercial. Did that help them win with MacOS? No, it wasn't until Macs got Windows compatibility, matched Wintel hardware, and integrated better into people's lives. << Well, we have to define 'win'. If 'win' is overthrow MS...it just ain't gonna happen. But if 'win' = get core businesses out of the red and into the black, you'd have to say that their marketing was pretty successful. Remember: they've had a awfully uphill battle for years just getting to where they are now....
chuckb84
on Sep 9, 2008
@Mike "Actually, all the "Apple is the most wonderful company in the history of the world and we just love them ever so much" type answering only with market share really does point out that not only is the iPod division just phoning it in these days but it's OK with them." Actually, I like Macs a lot, feel sort of so-so about Apple. OTOH, I detest Microsoft with a burning passion. It's a rational passion, based entirely on their monopolistic practices, and their chair-throwing CEO who personifies all that is wrong with that outfit. On top of that, they do make, as SJ memorably said, really 3rd rate products. Even then, I would never care, except that they are so extremely determined to inflict it on all of us. In truth, I don't give a crap about Marketshare, because I use what's best, not what's most popular (41c, Mac, all the same...)but it amuses me that on the desktop computing issue, the Windows advocates love to talk about it, but on the music side-----not so much. The iPod announcements today? Not too thrilling? Zune 3? Not too thrilling. Apple mainly seems to be morphing the iPod line into the iPhone, which does everything, some of it not so well so far, and the rest of the line which will be a PDA/gaming/mp3 player. Two other things: I stand by the Christmas sales comment. Apple will clean up with this new line of iPods, not as iPods, but as mobile gaming systems. And, yes, "shake to shuffle" seems really stupid to me. Like multitouch, accelerometers are a new UI feature and they're still figuring out how to use them. Some of the ideas are stupid, like that one.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 9, 2008
chuckb You're missing the difference in discussion of marketshare. When desktop marketshare comes up here it's in response to statements that try to show how much Mac has grown and how important OS X is in the world. You don't see Zune fans saying "Zune is on its way to eating Apple's lunch" they way you see Mac fans going on about OS X. When iPod share comes up its in response to statements like yours about how it's OK that Apple doesn't innovate because they'll sell the most anyway. And, again, you don't see Windows fans saying that Microsoft can coast because they own the desktop no matter what. See the difference?
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 9, 2008
And, tying in an older discussion... For all the Apple fans who've said today, "It's OK that Apple didn't really announce anything significant this year. iPod will still dominate sales no matter what.", a question: Can you think of a better definition of monopoly power than that?
bettieblu
on Sep 9, 2008
Mike is Paul I think? That is why he knows why Paul is locking threads. I thinks it just makes it look like he wants to control what is on this site, which is fine by me its his site, but why have a comment section at all? To get only the responses he likes? Compared to most comment sections the posts on this site are E for everyone. Very mild, so it cant people attacking each other?
MaryW
on Sep 9, 2008
@sankass " Do you feel more affinity for Justin Long (I'm a Mac) or John Hodgeman (I'm a PC) in their ads? I've been using Macs since 1988 and I like Hodgeman better." Everyone likes Hodgeman. That's the whole idea!
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 9, 2008
bettieblu Nope Some differences... Paul is almost exactly 10 years younger than me. I've never been to Ireland I have a beard Seriously, do you think Paul interrupts his time in meetings at Microsoft this week to monitor the chit chat on the comments and lock down threads he doesn' t like?
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 9, 2008
MaryW Precisely why the ads work. You associate with Hodgeman and thus associate with every time he loses thus internalizing the sense of wanting to not be a loser by buying a Mac. Note that Long's character is always sympathetic toward Hodgeman's plight.
bettieblu
on Sep 9, 2008
No he is busy today so this one has not gotten locked:)
shark47
on Sep 9, 2008
The ads work because they're negative. It's like watching skits on SNL or Mad TV. Even McCain's celebrity ad worked the same way - "Don't vote for Obama because he's a celebrity." Has anyone seen the latest ad on cnn.com and other sites? It's as negative as an ad can get. By the way, I remember people at Gizmodo or Engadget (don't remember which faux news site) were pissed off with the Mad TV skit about Steve Jobs.
dmccall
on Sep 9, 2008
As a Sansa Rhapsody player users, I am continually amazed at all of the attention put on these iPods. No question the ecosystem puts the iPods way out in front of the others. However, iPods are built for people who listen to the same ol' stuff, day in...day out. I got a 4GB Sansa Rhapsody player 15 months ago and haven't been the least bit interested in any iPods or Zunes. The interface is great and the selection of songs at Rhaposody is incredible. I've never been happier with my music setup than I am now. Of course, if there were an ecosystem, it would make this thing the clear 10-count winner.
shark47
on Sep 9, 2008
Going negative also gets people talking about the ads. The media loves Apple so they got away with it, but MS would have been torn apart for running those ads. I do think MS should go negative with Zune. Yes, it won't win them any friends, but at least people will know about the product. " I detest Microsoft with a burning passion. It's a rational passion, based entirely on their monopolistic practices, and their chair-throwing CEO who personifies all that is wrong with that outfit. On top of that, they do make, as SJ memorably said, really 3rd rate products. Even then, I would never care, except that they are so extremely determined to inflict it on all of us." Yeah. I wouldn't have bought a PC if Ballmer hadn't tied me to a chair and threatened to do the "monkey dance". He also spilled all of the Apple kool-aid that I had. That bastard.
Waethorn
on Sep 9, 2008
"I've "used" a Zune about as much as Wae has "used" an iPod" The argument was never about how much I used an iPod....it was about how much I've used iTunes. I've held several iPods in my hand (including a touch, and an iPhone 3G). The hardware was nothing special. The software OTOH is a joke. The biggest joke that Apple ever foisted on Windows users (you know, aside from Safari, MobileMe, Bonjour, Quicktime, as well as that whole carpet-bombing issue).
bettieblu
on Sep 9, 2008
Dmcall "However, iPods are built for people who listen to the same ol' stuff, day in...day out." I was not aware that all music in mp3 format could not play on an iPod???? I can only imagine what I have been missing:)
MaryW
on Sep 9, 2008
I suggest that you guys enjoy the bickering (on this subject) while you can, but I think that we have just reached a turning point in the PMP business. There is little to no growth left in it. Smart/feature/music phones have taken it over. There just isn't anything to get excited about anymore, and I expect the tech press to be pointing that out over the next few days. And no, I don't think they will be raving about Apple's new line up. It was a solid update with nothing earth shattering. More storage, cheaper prices, some useful new features ... and some just for the sake of it. It's no surprise that the Nano got the bulk of the changes. I suspect that that's the model most at risk. Cheaper little clip-on Shuffles are great for exercising and as gifts. Large storage hard drive sales are dwindling but there will always be the hard core types that insist that they need 30,000 tracks at all times ...... plus phones don't compete in the GB department. The iPod touch is a mini hand held computer and .... Mike, that gaming "filler" from Schiller will probably sell 100K units on it's own. You can add video, wifi, colors and 'shake to shuffle' but the traditional PMP is just the modern version of the Walkman. You take your media with you. When your phone can do all the same things .... and you never leave home without it.... why pay $199.00 for something else? All of the above is not good news for the Zune. Not because of the iPod (alone) but because of Nokia, Sony Eriksson and the rest. Zune may grab some more share but it's a dwindling market. It was just a little late to the party. I don't want to be all doom and gloom. :) Zune Phone and/or a Zune "touch" coupled with the whole 'social' thing might be a way to increase interest in the product.
Ocean
on Sep 9, 2008
>>It was a solid update with nothing earth shattering. More storage, cheaper prices, some useful new features ... and some just for the sake of it<< So if it was a solid update, why is Apple being criticized for doing it. What more should/could they have done?
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 9, 2008
Mary As I said above as one of the items worth mentioning from the hour: "Retargeting Touch as a portable game device with music player and competitor to PSP" Note also that Microsoft has put Media Player in every Windows Mobile device and sync between Media Player on the desktop and Media Player on the phone has been a key feature as well. The open music player design is a different ecosystem from the tight channel model of iPod and Zune but if the market moves back that way, Microsoft's ahead of the game. (And some of them support A2DP stereo Bluetooth playback)
Ocean
on Sep 9, 2008
Back to the Zune. 90% of those who bought one are satisfied with it. MS thinks they can still sell them grow the PMP catagory. Robbie Bach says: >>software and services are what's going to be ultimately the differentiator in this space. << http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/archives/148313.asp
Ocean
on Sep 9, 2008
>>Microsoft has put Media Player in every Windows Mobile device and sync between Media Player on the desktop and Media Player on the phone has been a key feature as well. << Was it you that used the word monopoly earlier? I can't remember... :)
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 9, 2008
Ocean "solid update" is damning with faint praise. Remember that, unlike Zune which updates software twice a year, this is it for iPod innovations until likely September 8, 2009. If the products were a little long in the tooth this year (and the non-Touch models really haven't gotten much in a while) imagine how dated they'll seem a year from now. What more could they have done? Well, take a look at the innovations that came out of the Zune team this week without even a change in the hardware. Now, compare "Buy from FM" with "Shake to shuffle". Compare "Zune Card Sharing" with "Thinnest nano ever (2/100ths of an inch thinner than last year!)". Compare "Channels" with "nano-chromatic".
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 9, 2008
Ocean Monopolies are per market. Are you suggesting that Microsoft is the monopoly player in digital media players? The biggest player laughed at Microsoft's market share this morning in his annual "State of the iPod" speech. Sure, Apple might abuse their monopoly power in music sales to block Microsoft from syncing things bought through iTunes from seamlessly working with other companies' devices but we may see the courts give relief to those Apple has harmed or Apple might decide to play nicely with 3rd parties for once to avoid a maintenance of monopoly by illegal practices charge.
Ocean
on Sep 9, 2008
Buy from FM is unique, but it isn't a big innovation. It's a DAP/PMP version of a feature that Pandora has. When you hear a song you like, you can click to download it from iTunes or Amazon. You can bookmark it to do later. Like I said, it's nice and unique, but not a worldbeater. Can you buy from anyone, or just the Zune music store?
Ocean
on Sep 9, 2008
You can stop tossing that bait out there. According to one definition: >> a monopoly exists when a specific individual or enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it<< Apple does not have a monopoly over the digital music market. You can get the same songs and albums with very few exceptions (that exist in all the stores) from Amazon and others. Furthur, you are not limited to Apple products if you want a DAP/PMP.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 9, 2008
Ocean Identifying a song over FM by subcarrier encoding then transferring that song to a purchase list (or download list for ZunePass subscribers) is not only unique, it's a huge innovation linking two different distribution media seamlessly and answering a real consumer desire unlike it's nano-chromatic! As for the closed (single store) vs open (multiple store) architecture, Microsoft supports both models. Zune is closed (for people who like a simple, totally integrated model - like iPod/iTunes) and the "Certified for Windows Vista" media program is open (for people who like to choose their players and stores separately but still want it to work - unlike any Apple offerings). What was your point?
Ocean
on Sep 9, 2008
>>block Microsoft from syncing things bought through iTunes from seamlessly working with other companies' devices<< DRM free on some, legally bound for the rest. Nothing Apple can do there... In France: >>On June 28, 2004, VirginMega filed a complaint with the French Competition Council against Apple regarding its refusal to license Fairplay to VirginMega for use in their own online music commerce store. The French Conseil de la Concurrence rejected the complaint over accused anti-competitive behavior.[5] The Conseil ruled against the notion that FairPlay was an "essential facility" for three distinct reasons: 1) Playing purchased music on portable players was a small part of the market; 2) CD Burning provides an adequate work-around to get purchased music from other vendors onto an iPod; and 3) There is sufficient availability of portable players that support Microsoft's WMA DRM as a viable alternative and choice for consumers.[6]<<
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 9, 2008
Ocean So, I can buy locked media on the iTunes store and play it on my Zune or my Windows Mobile phone or my iRiver? I can use iTunes as a podcatcher and have it sync to my Windows Mobile phone? How about to a Nokia? On your last point, you honestly think somebody's not a monopoly if any competitor exists? Well, call the DOJ and tell them. That's be big news.
Ocean
on Sep 9, 2008
No...my question is: When I hear a song on my FM radio on my Zune and I want to buy it, does it have to be bought from the Zune Music store, or do I have my choice of companies (like Amazon.com) that I can purchase it from?
Ocean
on Sep 9, 2008
>>So, I can buy locked media on the iTunes store and play it on my Zune or my Windows Mobile phone or my iRiver?<< Only if you burn a CD and then rip it back. But why would you want to do that? Just buy it in the format that fits your player from another store. >>I can use iTunes as a podcatcher and have it sync to my Windows Mobile phone?<< Yes. Just have WiMP monitor the podcast directory under the iTunes Music Library folder. Then...sync. Having a monopoly isn't illegal. Using it anticompetively is.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 9, 2008
Ocean "Nothing Apple can do there..." Aww, poor Apple. Unable to work with the ActiveSync API to let iTunes work with non-iPod devices. Oh. Wait. They not only know how to do it (It's a publicly available API) but they even have an ActiveSync license. And, gee, it'd be hard for them to write a codec for their proprietary wrapper. Yeah. Nothing they can do.
Ocean
on Sep 9, 2008
>>"Nothing Apple can do there..."<< You picked the wrong part of the post to reply to, and you replied to it out of context. Here's the important part: >>legally bound for the rest. Nothing Apple can do there...<< Apple has to be released by the folks it licenses the music from the sell it DRM-free. If they won't...theres nothing Apple can do about it.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 9, 2008
Ocean, The issue isn't that there aren't ways to get around Apple's proprietary lock in (that is considered anticompetitive behavior if done by a monopoly). The issue is that you shouldn't have to. You see, it's anticompetitive to make an essential part of one product that's dominent in a market (say, iTunes) locked in so that it's not able to be used by other parties. If there were a ruling, Apple would likely be ordered to make the APIs available to let users of other players access iTunes store content and users of the iPods use any store they choose.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 9, 2008
Ocean. Nothing says that the only way to play Apple DRM products on other brand players is by breaking the DRM. The license required that the DRM be enforced not that it be enforced only on Apple products.
Ocean
on Sep 9, 2008
>>it's anticompetitive to make an essential part of one product that's dominent in a market (say, iTunes) locked in so that it's not able to be used by other parties. << You're covering up the key part here: Music is the element for sale. There is no restraint on where you can buy it and where you can play it. Now what about my other question: Does the Zune "Tag and Buy from FM" feature work with multiple stores, or just the Zune music store?
Ocean
on Sep 9, 2008
I knew I'd heard of tagging and buying before: >>Apple has offered a similar feature through HD radios, allowing users to tag songs from bookshelf systems like the Polk Audio I-Sonic Entertainment System 2 I reviewed for Gadget Lab last month. << >>Two new receivers/iPod docks allow users to tag any song they hear on HD Radio for later purchase from the iTunes music store: the Polk Audio I-Sonic Entertainment System 2 (pictured to the right), and the JBL iHD, a more compact system. These units represent the debut of a new feature from Apple called iTunes Tagging. Here's how it works: HD Radio stations send song information along with their signal; when the user hits the tag button, that information gets stored on any iPod in the receiver's iPod dock. The next time the iPod is synced with the user's iTunes collection, the tagged songs show up for purchase within iTunes.<< http://blog.wired.com/music/2008/09/zunes-buy-from.html http://blog.wired.com/music/2007/09/hd-radio-ipod-d.html
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 9, 2008
Ocean You do not buy music. You buy limited rights to use music files. As for the Zune buy from FM question you keep asking, I already answered it.
Ocean
on Sep 9, 2008
>>The license required that the DRM be enforced not that it be enforced only on Apple products. << Jobs himself answers: >>Apple has concluded that if it licenses FairPlay to others, it can no longer guarantee to protect the music it licenses from the big four music companies. Perhaps this same conclusion contributed to Microsoft’s recent decision to switch their emphasis from an “open” model of licensing their DRM to others to a “closed” model of offering a proprietary music store, proprietary jukebox software and proprietary players. <<
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 9, 2008
Ocean While the HD Radio tagging is a subset of what Zune offers it's tied to being at home, at your base station that you paid extra for and only works with HD radio. That kind of misses the whole point of a portable music player, doesn't it?
Ocean
on Sep 9, 2008
>>As for the Zune buy from FM question you keep asking, I already answered it. << I didn't see it. Please answer it again, and a simple yes, it does or no, it doesn't will suffice: >>Does the Zune "Tag and Buy from FM" feature work with multiple stores, that it stores other than the Zune Marketplace.<<
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 9, 2008
Ocean "Apple has concluded that if it licenses FairPlay to others, it can no longer guarantee to protect the music it licenses from the big four music companies." In other words, they won't do it. Not, they can't, they don't want to bother because it's against their financial interests. If it were technically impossible nobody else would be able to including Microsoft who was quite able to do it by Jobs own admission. After all, how could Microsoft be "changing their emphasis" away from something that wasn't possible?
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 9, 2008
Ocean Pasting for the search impaired As for the closed (single store) vs open (multiple store) architecture, Microsoft supports both models. Zune is closed (for people who like a simple, totally integrated model - like iPod/iTunes) and the "Certified for Windows Vista" media program is open (for people who like to choose their players and stores separately but still want it to work - unlike any Apple offerings). What was your point?
DRWAM
on Sep 9, 2008
Isn't there a Sansa "Shake"?
Lindy
on Sep 9, 2008
JHC 141 posts no lock? Paul on vacation? Wow Mikey a new record for you with 44 posts!!! Looks like some of the other 97 posts are not to happy with you:) I would say the event was just OK. Not bad, Not great. Solid improvements across the board and with the price drops I imagine the iTouch 8gig will own this holiday season. The genius thing did wow me as much as Jobs went on about it, then again I dont want to kill my internet connection when it scans my music collection. Honestly who care who wins, just kick back and listen to some tunes!!!
tayme
on Sep 9, 2008
@mike - "Identifying a song over FM by subcarrier encoding then transferring that song to a purchase list (or download list for ZunePass subscribers) is not only unique, it's a huge innovation linking two different distribution media seamlessly and answering a real consumer desire unlike it's nano-chromatic!" Its not all that unique...XM ToGo has had it for a few years now. I guess its unique, in that it is FM radio instead of a satellite signal...but the concept is not innovative in the least. --tayme
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 9, 2008
tayme Terrestrial radio and radio not owned by the company providing the service are what make it a big deal.
tayme
on Sep 9, 2008
Oh, I like the idea, I own a Zune...I am just saying it is not innovative. Plus, XM doesn't own Napster, last I knew. --tayme
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 9, 2008
Not service as in Napster, service as in the broadcast network. The key is they owned both ends of the data pipe carrying the radio signal and the data format.
Ocean
on Sep 9, 2008
>>That kind of misses the whole point of a portable music player, doesn't it?<< We're talking about the idea, Mike. It's not a new idea or a great gee whiz innovation. It's just unique to the Zune, inasmuch as the Zune is one of very few with both FM Radio, WiFi, and it's own store.
Ocean
on Sep 9, 2008
>>In other words, they won't do it. Not, they can't, they don't want to bother because it's against their financial interests.<< I agree. Though I think now that they would open it all up to DRM-free if the labels would let them. I don't think they would license Fairplay under any conditions. I think they'd demand that the labels let them sell the music without DRM, and even go so far as to not sell music that they couldn't get the rights to see DRM-free. NBC came around to their way of thinking.
Ocean
on Sep 9, 2008
>>Pasting for the search impaired<< Yes or No: I can 'tag' music on FM on my new blue Zune and when I get to my PC it will automatically buy it from the Amazon.com MP3 store, my store of choice? Yes or No...true or false?
tayme
on Sep 9, 2008
Oh, XM doesn't own Samsung or Pioneer or Delphi, they are the end of the data pipe that is in the users hand...Come on Mike...its ok. Admit it. MS did not innovate this thing. You can take your nose out of the air long enough to admit...YOU ARE WRONG ON THIS ONE!!! Of course, I fully expect you come up with any type of comment to avoid admitting the simple fact that I am right and you are wrong on this one. Again, I point you to http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20080825 --tayme

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