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Enough, Microsoft. No One Is Endorsing Piracy. Obviously.

Oct. 29, 2009 Paul Thurrott | Paul Thurrott's Supersite for Windows

I love the self-righteous nature of this little Microsoft post, which quite clearly addresses the "hack" I published the other day without actually providing a link or naming names.

Unfortunately, it looks like it is time to have this conversation again though. Over the past several days there have been various posts, etc. across a variety of social media engines stating that some “hack” (be it a person or a procedure) shows that a Windows 7 Upgrade disc can perform a “clean” installation of Windows 7 on a blank drive from a technical perspective. Of course, from the posts I saw, they often forgot to mention a very basic, yet very important piece of information… “Technically possible” does not always mean legal.

Hey, Microsoft. Duh.

Let's be very clear about something here: I'm not endorsing piracy. Obviously. I'm just trying to support the millions of people that Microsoft fooled into pre-ordering Windows 7 by offering steep discounts, only to discover later that the Upgrade version they purchased unknowingly might not actually install properly. I've gotten hundreds of emails about this. I suspect Microsoft has gotten many times that number. So you know what? I'm going to continue supporting Windows users. Even as Microsoft throws them to the wind with this kind of baloney.

What really cracks me up is that this post quotes the most relevant EULA-based part of this argument. Which is this:

To use upgrade software, you must first be licensed for the software that is eligible for the upgrade.

Exactly. That's who I'm supporting. Millions and millions of people. Many of which are discovering that their Upgrade version of Windows 7 will not install properly on their existing, Windows-based PCs. The PCs that are supposed to support upgrades.

This should be obvious. Please stop suggesting it's not, or that I am doing something else.

And for the nth time, you could (and should) have clearly documented how this works months ago. Or allowed myself and others to do so. You chose to ignore this need. So this is a problem of your own making. It's that simple. You make it too hard. And then you complain when someone else tries to make it easy.

Brilliant.

Discuss this Article 130

Logjamming
on Oct 29, 2009
Clear blog post, Paul. And I, as an apple-fan, am with you on this one.
chipwinter
on Oct 29, 2009
Any idea if Microsoft is addressing the users' concerns other than posting this slap on the wrist?
panache1023
on Oct 29, 2009
Microsoft would never "throw their users to the wind"... Right MikeGalos? Right Waethorn?
rlcronin
on Oct 29, 2009
That reaction from MS was entirely predictable, Paul.
lotsamystuff
on Oct 29, 2009
Either it wasn't obvious, or they're not talking about Paul. Either way, someone's skin seems wax-paper-thin here.
MLomasIcomm
on Oct 29, 2009
So by Paul's standards, are we now safe to describe the Windows 7 Upgrade process as a "Train Wreck"? ;)
mikegalos@msn.com
on Oct 29, 2009
Paul Realistically, you should look at the titles of the postbacks to your previous articles. Many, if not most, of them were titles advocating using your method to use an upgrade disk to avoid having to pay for a full package product. In other words, they were advocating theft. Knowing you, encouraging theft wasn't your intent but it clearly was theirs.
Keleko
on Oct 29, 2009
Yes, clearly MS has dropped the ball when it comes to upgrading when they are clearly legally allowed to so but can't follow the narrow path defined to do it. Whatever happened to the previous installation media check they used to do? That would go a long way to fixing a lot of people's problems if you could just use your XP or Vista install disc to verify your upgrade. I know there will be people that don't have or can't find their old media, but at least it is a way to allow it. Are we calling it a debacle yet? It sounds like one to me.
nutmac
on Oct 29, 2009
I want to thank Paul for helping many Windows 7 consumers install legitimately purchased products the way they should function in the first place. Considering how majority of the Windows 7 buyers are upgrading from previous version of Windows, I find all these "anti-piracy" measures more of anti-consumer measures. DIY and Mac users are perhaps only notable exceptions, but many of them buy OEM versions anyway. Many would-be consumers are probably more inclined to use pirated version of Windows as a result of these measures. Microsoft just doesn't get it.
anonymous
on Oct 29, 2009
This post was mentioned on Twitter by Everything Microsoft: Enough, Microsoft. No One Is Endorsing Piracy. Obviously. http://bit.ly/3dZChv
yoshipod
on Oct 29, 2009
I hereby officially proclaim that we all may now all freely use this term. "The Windows 7 Debacle"
mikegalos@msn.com
on Oct 29, 2009
Paul, Some examples of article titles that link back to your article at: http://community.winsupersite.com/blogs/paul/archive/2009/10/23/clean-in... Save $80 on your Windows 7 purchase - the Upgrade does full installs, too Ahorra dinero comprando la actualizaci??n de Windows 7 para instalaciones limpias (save money by buying the update Windows 7 for clean installations) Use Windows 7 Upgrade Disc to Perform Full Install and Save $80! Windows 7 install trick saves up to $100 Pretending the workaround isn't primarily going to be used for theft despite your good intentions is, at best, naieve.
bdegrande
on Oct 29, 2009
Excellent post. Microsoft has abused their users in the name of fighting piracy, in much the same manner as the RIAA. As one who was gullible enough to buy Vista Ultimate, I think they owe us better treatment. My own reaction is very simple. Windows 7 will be the LAST operating system that I buy with any sort of product activation scheme.
Waethorn
on Oct 29, 2009
"some “hack” (be it a person..." Ouch. The honeymoon is ovah!!! "I'm just trying to support the millions of people that Microsoft fooled into pre-ordering Windows 7 by offering steep discounts, only to discover later that the Upgrade version they purchased unknowingly might not actually install properly." How so? "Legal" means you run it on a system with another legal copy already preinstalled. How does circumventing that prevent it from being less than "legal"? "Many of which are discovering that their Upgrade version of Windows 7 will not install properly on their existing, Windows-based PCs. The PCs that are supposed to support upgrades." I'm going to take the unpopular side and say that it's not your job to practise "vigilante justice". If the customer has a problem, they get support from Microsoft. That's why they pay the big bucks for retail versions (and that includes retail upgrades) after all.
chipwinter
on Oct 29, 2009
When Apple released Snow Leopard and supported the Honor System for upgrading (i.e., you can actually upgrade from Tiger, though the license doesn't allow it), I thought that Microsoft should consider doing the same. I'm not so sure anymore.
Waethorn
on Oct 29, 2009
"Pretending the workaround isn't primarily going to be used for theft despite your good intentions is, at best, naieve." It's the same argument that the creators of Bittorrent, Limewire, Kazaa, and all the other P2P software use.
MSWindowsGuy
on Oct 29, 2009
I pre-ordered a copy of Windows 7 Home Premium Upgrade and I had no trouble with doing a clean install. I didn't even have to prove that I had a copy of Wnidows XP or Windows Vista (which, on both counts, I do).
Waethorn
on Oct 29, 2009
As a reseller of Microsoft software, I don't want customers thinking that this is an easy way to get around paying more for the legal version. Markup is all percentages, and percentages on a lower sale price means less profit to my business.
g6672D
on Oct 29, 2009
Well if they're so concerned about the loophole, they should close it. But, if users decide to stuff paying them at all, it'll backfire.
panache1023
on Oct 29, 2009
If the EULA says "To use upgrade software, you must first be licensed for the software that is eligible for the upgrade." And if that is the sole requirement, then the need for it to be installed is not a requirement, and doing a clean install with the upgrade disk is not illegal
chuckb84
on Oct 29, 2009
The comparison with the RIAA is apt. The key point is that if your business model puts you at war with your customers, you better find a new business model. All this licensing and activation crap from Microsoft has never put a dent in the major sources of piracy; it has only made life difficult for honest users. Treating customers as criminals, especially in this case, is not just insulting and petty, it also doesn't make any economic sense. How many of the Win7 sales will be to individual upgraders, as opposed to corporate purchases or installs that come with new computers? I believe the number is usually stated at around 5%. So, if 10% of that is "piracy", then Microsoft lost 0.5% of sales. Surely it makes more sense to just accommodate the customers, the folks who pay the bills? Especially since the people who are even interested in this topic are some of Microsoft's more vocal supporters. Dumb, dumb response from Microsoft. Reminds me of when Apple went after the blogger who was a kid.
Rasken
on Oct 29, 2009
Paul made a point on Windows Weekly that resounds most clearly with me through all this. "Who in their lifetimes, has not owned a Windows Machine." Noone is coming to windows fresh here. 95% of people that will be buying Windows 7 will be buying a PC for it. What was the statistic on Mac users a few weeks ago? 80% of them are a Windows household as well? Most of them have a licensed copy of Windows on hardware that is going unused or will be disposed of. They should have to buy a new full version cause it's different 3rd party hardware? I upgraded from a clean install of win 7 RC1 to RTM and just popped in my upgrade key(I had re-armed the copy once since the install as well), does that make me a thief?
roteague
on Oct 29, 2009
Thanks for the update Paul. I agree, it isn't about cheating Microsoft, it's about doing a clean install. I would really hate to have to carry about my Vista disks for years after I upgrade, just in case I have a hardware failure.
GoodThings2Life
on Oct 29, 2009
@Logjamming (and crew) ... Oh knock it off already with the Apple-fandom. Nobody cares! @Paul... I completely agree! I still think that "Activation" just needs to go away entirely. Sell your product at reasonable prices (the way they have with these promotional upgrade packages), and people will buy, and Amazon has got the pre-order sales figures to prove it!
Ocean
on Oct 29, 2009
Rasken, he made a very valid point at the end of the blog post that blows you and Paul away: >>please remember, No, OEM Microsoft Windows licenses cannot be transferred to another PC, in case you were wondering if an old OEM Windows license you have laying around or on another PC could qualify for the Windows 7 upgrade on a different PC.<<
planetarian
on Oct 29, 2009
Rasken: If you'd like an honest answer, then yes, that is a license violation. Win7 RC is not eligible for an Upgrade to RTM, even if it is a technically feasible scenario. If that system previously was licensed for Vista/XP, then sure, I guess it's legal.
tdyer
on Oct 29, 2009
From what I read at the MS blog was that it was ok(legal) to perform the hack IF you had a full license. (I have 3 vista unused) In fact they added this "feature" specifically so consultants wouldnt have to do two installs. I think that is the bigger news item than cranky-pants being a pedantic douche about "bloggers" not saying that if you dont have a full license you cant have 7.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Oct 29, 2009
Re: It's all Microsoft's fault This is akin to the people saying how they used to not even have a lock on their door - but then having them blame Schlage and Yale and locksmiths for the inconvenience while thinking of robbers as romantic anti-heroes. You see this same bizarre reaction when discussing anti-malware products as well. Don't like activation and WGA and A/V and A/M software? Try blaming the thieves for a change. Re: Apple When Apple actually produces a Full Package Product of Mac OS X, we can talk. RIght now every Macintosh sold includes in its high price a license for Mac OSX and every retail copy of Mac OS X is an Upgrade license only legal for use on a computer that already has a Mac OS X license. Considering the $129 usual price for the upgrade it's safe to assume that the internal costing of a full package product included in a Macintosh sale is figured at Apple at somewhere between $300-400. If Apple ever sold full retail copies at that price it's hard to believe from their previous treatment of anyone they dislike that you wouldn't see them prosecuting anyone who publicized a way to use the $129 version in place of the $300-400 one.
Ocean
on Oct 29, 2009
"every Macintosh sold includes in its high price" You get what you pay for Michael. I'm talking about the hardware...
mikegalos@msn.com
on Oct 29, 2009
Ocean "You get what you pay for Michael. I'm talking about the hardware..." You mean like all those Time Capsules that are dying at the 18 month mark? Or the new 27" iMacs that slow down to an unusable crawl if they're used for more than 20 minutes without a reboot (likely due to either a memory leak in the video driver or an overheating problem)? You mean like that?
de Silentio
on Oct 29, 2009
Question: Did Paul hand the murderer the gun? It's a common ethical excercise to ask if the person who handed the murderer the gun is morally responsible for what happened.
yoshipod
on Oct 29, 2009
"Considering the $129 usual price for the upgrade it's safe to assume that the internal costing of a full package product included in a Macintosh sale is figured at Apple at somewhere between $300-400." I guess Apple must really discount their hardware then. By your accounting a brand new Mac Mini is only $199-$299. :)
Rasken
on Oct 29, 2009
Just a quick clarification - The system that I bought the upgrade from was a HP desktop with a valid Vista license.. I'm actually completely legit on my partular systems. I was just pointing out that if Microsoft wants people to do what is believes is the right thing, then it needs to develop technology that will enforce what they want. If you're going to rely on the honor system or flimsy security, then stop bitching in public that people might be ripping you off.
panache1023
on Oct 29, 2009
MikeGalos, How do you know Apple doesn't charge $129 for OS X on their systems? How do you know every Mac OS X disc isn't just the full version? On my Snow Leopard package, I don't remember seeing the word "Upgrade" anywhere.
Ocean
on Oct 29, 2009
>>You mean like that?<< No.
sjaak327
on Oct 29, 2009
I don't see the problem here. It is clear that in order to qualify for upgrade pricing, you do actually need to own a product that qualifies for upgrade. That's why I find it pretty strange, that the RC can be used to upgrade to Windows 7. Now, íf we look objectively at the matter at hand, you will soon realise that this post is made in vain. There is no problem. It is an upgrade version, so logically you would have a previous Windows version. So to get around the problem, you either upgrade your existing, fully licensed and activated copy of XP or Vista, and still have the choice (in Vista's case) to do a clean install. Or if you insist on installing it on a clean hard drive, you install the previous OS and do the same upgrade as above. Where is the problem here. Unless of course you don't have a previous Windows version, in which case you are stealing.
rr0de74@live.com
on Oct 29, 2009
With that student upgrade .exe/.iso issue and this, I think i see a new Apple ad is brewing. This stuff only really matters in the US/Cananda and probably some parts of Europe. Go to India, China, Russia or large parts of South America and you can get Windows 7(any version) for free because of piracy. Its funny they pick on Paul. A billion copies of Windows around the world. No doubt with 2/3rds of them running illegally. With half of them running cash registers or other single purpose application/devices that users of may not even know Windows is in the device they are using, but those numbers make for a good PPT slide when you need them.
rr0de74@live.com
on Oct 29, 2009
You mean like that? I do, #1 in consumer satisfaction. Mike I think you meant the Xbox 360 with its 56% failure rate. F...I...F....T...Y.......S.....I....X % FAILURE RATE. Just in case you did not read it correctly the first time.
Waethorn
on Oct 29, 2009
"It's a common ethical excercise to ask if the person who handed the murderer the gun is morally responsible for what happened." Here's a bit of clarity on that issue: If you state on public television that you wish someone were dead, and that some lunatic watching actually kills that person, then yes, you are an accomplice to murder.
Waethorn
on Oct 29, 2009
Hmm....purchase legitimately-packaged Microsoft software but breach the EULA and post about it, and they give you a stern warning on their website about right and wrong. Purchase legitimately-packaged Apple software but breach the EULA and post about it, and they send you a C&D order and threaten to sue.
Waethorn
on Oct 29, 2009
"#1 in consumer satisfaction." In Apple's case, 20 people doesn't amount to much in the grander scheme of things.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Oct 29, 2009
panache "How do you know every Mac OS X disc isn't just the full version?" Because the license agreement doesn't allow you to install it on any computer but an Apple Macintosh which ONLY is available with a Mac OS X license. Don't believe it? Try installing it on a "hackintosh" laptop and then take that laptop to a "Genius Bar" for support? I'd be amused at the result. (But I won't pay your legal fees)
Waethorn
on Oct 29, 2009
So, um, Ubuntu 9.10 is out. Does anybody care?
Waethorn
on Oct 29, 2009
Speaking of which - their site is down. LOL! Epic launch fail!
rr0de74@live.com
on Oct 29, 2009
Sure I rebuilt a FTP server with Ubuntu 9.10 for free. It was running Windows 2000.
rr0de74@live.com
on Oct 29, 2009
Epic launch fail...because of high demand? Yeah failure that kind that every company wants.
Ocean
on Oct 29, 2009
>> Does anybody care?<< Downloading it now.
Waethorn
on Oct 29, 2009
I'm curious to know why Canonical has no screenshots or other info about the Netbook Remix version. What's also curious is why they licensed their version of Moblin Remix exclusively to Dell. I'm more interested in Moblin than anything else on the Linux front. Anyway, the site is back up. I'd bet there will be about as many people "upgrading" to Mac during the Windows 7 cycle as there will be to Linux.
Ocean
on Oct 29, 2009
>>I'd bet there will be about as many people "upgrading" to Mac during the Windows 7 cycle as there will be to Linux.<< I'd bet Apple will post wildly profitable results the next time it reports.
rr0de74@live.com
on Oct 29, 2009
I agree with Ocean's prediction. Paul and some people on this this site is so focused on Market share numbers they are blind to other statistics, like market cap, cash in the bank, stock price etc.

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