Enough, Microsoft. No One Is Endorsing Piracy. Obviously.

I love the self-righteous nature of this little Microsoft post, which quite clearly addresses the "hack" I published the other day without actually providing a link or naming names.

Unfortunately, it looks like it is time to have this conversation again though. Over the past several days there have been various posts, etc. across a variety of social media engines stating that some “hack” (be it a person or a procedure) shows that a Windows 7 Upgrade disc can perform a “clean” installation of Windows 7 on a blank drive from a technical perspective. Of course, from the posts I saw, they often forgot to mention a very basic, yet very important piece of information… “Technically possible” does not always mean legal.

Hey, Microsoft. Duh.

Let's be very clear about something here: I'm not endorsing piracy. Obviously. I'm just trying to support the millions of people that Microsoft fooled into pre-ordering Windows 7 by offering steep discounts, only to discover later that the Upgrade version they purchased unknowingly might not actually install properly. I've gotten hundreds of emails about this. I suspect Microsoft has gotten many times that number. So you know what? I'm going to continue supporting Windows users. Even as Microsoft throws them to the wind with this kind of baloney.

What really cracks me up is that this post quotes the most relevant EULA-based part of this argument. Which is this:

To use upgrade software, you must first be licensed for the software that is eligible for the upgrade.

Exactly. That's who I'm supporting. Millions and millions of people. Many of which are discovering that their Upgrade version of Windows 7 will not install properly on their existing, Windows-based PCs. The PCs that are supposed to support upgrades.

This should be obvious. Please stop suggesting it's not, or that I am doing something else.

And for the nth time, you could (and should) have clearly documented how this works months ago. Or allowed myself and others to do so. You chose to ignore this need. So this is a problem of your own making. It's that simple. You make it too hard. And then you complain when someone else tries to make it easy.

Brilliant.

Discuss this Article 130

Waethorn
on Oct 29, 2009
"I'd bet Apple will post wildly profitable results the next time it reports." Knowing the cost the machines that they build: "In Apple's case, 20 people doesn't amount to much in the grander scheme of things."
yoshipod
on Oct 29, 2009
"In Apple's case, 20 people doesn't amount to much in the grander scheme of things." Those are some pretty rich people seeing as how they each purchased over 150,000 Macs last quarter!
EricoF3
on Oct 29, 2009
hmmm ... Again... Mike Galos is right on this one...
EricoF3
on Oct 29, 2009
Please... stop talking about Apple ... Apple offer no upgrade so... You always have to pay the full parice so...
Ocean
on Oct 29, 2009
>>Knowing the cost the machines that they build:<< It's not the cost, but the margins. Dell and Acer are fighting over $250 - $300 machines that are sold for little more than it costs to produce them. Apple wisely decided not to play that game. And Apples *entire* business is robust enough to float them through any rough quarters in the PC market. As it is they've outperformed the PC market something like 17 of the last 18 quarters.
EricoF3
on Oct 29, 2009
Please... stop talking about Apple ... Apple offer no upgrade so... You always have to pay the full *price* so...
EricoF3
on Oct 29, 2009
Ocean said:"[...]Apple wisely decided not to play that game. And Apples *entire* business is robust enough to float them through any rough quarters in the PC market. As it is they've outperformed the PC market something like 17 of the last 18 quarters." Baaaa! Big Deal!!! Apple did not decided anything on the PC market... Apple is just selling cheap PC like if it was High grade PC... Don't tell me they are not in the game... pffff... Apple business is robust just because of the IPod and IPhone market not the PC market... Let me laugh... pfffff...
jonathanmarston
on Oct 29, 2009
I think the Microsoft blog post had a valid point. You gave instructions for doing a clean install with upgrade media, but did not describe under what conditions this is legal. It's not like they're sayng doing a clean install isn't legal. On the contrary, the post points out that this is perfectly legal for "many, many, many, many of you." I would think that any time a responsible individual describes how to do something that could potentially be used for illegal purposes they would also point out under what circumstances it would be illegal to do so...
EricoF3
on Oct 29, 2009
jonathanmarston said: "I think the Microsoft blog post had a valid point. You gave instructions for doing a clean install with upgrade media, but did not describe under what conditions this is legal. It's not like they're sayng doing a clean install isn't legal. On the contrary, the post points out that this is perfectly legal for "many, many, many, many of you." I would think that any time a responsible individual describes how to do something that could potentially be used for illegal purposes they would also point out under what circumstances it would be illegal to do so..." Jonathan is particularly right here...
rr0de74@live.com
on Oct 29, 2009
@EricaF3 APLe haz UPGrndez for $TwENTy 9 dllras!!!!!! "Apple business is robust just because of the IPod and IPhone market not the PC market... Let me laugh... pfffff..." You do know that you can actually lookup the profits that the Mac division is making at Apple and see that you are wrong? pffff....zINg....NARheeee.....efefefeeFEFEF........EPIC FAIL!!!!!
techman.merb
on Oct 29, 2009
I don't see what the big deal is here. Any company that puts out upgrade versions of their software has exactly the same rules as Microsoft. Everything from Autocad to Photoshop to Quark has the same rules for their upgrades. You have to have a licensed version of a qualifying product to be eligible for an upgrade version. Upgrades are a way to reward repeat customers, not a way to attract new ones.
yoshipod
on Oct 29, 2009
techman.merb You certainly make a valid point, but I think the problem is that many users who legally purchased the upgrade, and met the qualifications to upgrade, are not able to do a clean install of the OS. I may have misunderstood, but this seems to be a problem in cases where you need to do a clean upgrade, such as 32-64, or if your system has problems and you need to reinstall.
whiplash55
on Oct 29, 2009
I was able to do a clean install of 7 Pro upgrade with no hack at all. The drive was only a few months old and had Vista Ultimate on it. I did an custom install and used advanced options to format my C drive and do a clean install. So what am I missing? Isn't this the result you want when doing a clean install with upgrade media? If you want to use upgrade media on a blank drive or new home built computer than you're not doing an upgrade and aren't entitled to the preferential price. You can save money by buying OEM media from Newegg which I assume is Kosher for home built PC's since Microsoft supplies Newegg and the other retail vendors with the product.
rr0de74@live.com
on Oct 29, 2009
Autocad and its license server crap, make Windows upgrade/activation look like a fun activity to enjoyed by all.
Waethorn
on Oct 29, 2009
"Those are some pretty rich people seeing as how they each purchased over 150,000 Macs last quarter!" Nope. Just one each. Each one sold subsidizes the Steve Jobs Hospice Fund.
rr0de74@live.com
on Oct 29, 2009
@whiplash what happens if your hard drive fails and you dont have Vista on the blank replacement? Are you going to buy a new copy of 7?
Waethorn
on Oct 29, 2009
" I'm just stating that I could install SL using one disk on multiple, compatible Macs." Just like doing a clean install of Windows without having a previous valid license, that would be illegal.
Ocean
on Oct 29, 2009
"Each one sold subsidizes the Steve Jobs Hospice Fund." That is SO out of bounds.
Waethorn
on Oct 29, 2009
"Autocad and its license server crap, make Windows upgrade/activation look like a fun activity to enjoyed by all." I remember when software used to come with parallel port dongles.
rr0de74@live.com
on Oct 29, 2009
"Steve Jobs Hospice Fund" and the humanitarian of the year award goes to Waethorn!!! Karma brother, yours is broken and hopefully you wont fall ill with some deadly disease in the near future and be all alone in some dingy hospital, running Apple computers!!!! Please link your fellow Windows users to some malware sites like you did in the past. That stunt actually tops todays performance. You know test Windows 7 and MSE.
rr0de74@live.com
on Oct 29, 2009
"I remember when software used to come with parallel port dongles." Some now come with USB thumb drives that do basically the same thing. I find it odd that I have used Enterprise software like Legato Backup Software in the past that has some insane security. Like having to manually type in a long key (no copy paste) then that key combined with the hardware and IP address, will randomly create another key that you send back to the vendor, which then they send you the second key from them that needs to be manually typed in. This must be done with in 30 days or it shuts off. No hacking that easy, yet NO ONE would want to pirate this stuff???
EricoF3
on Oct 29, 2009
Ok so now Apple sell Upgrade too... All apple *fan* here pass a conciderable amount off time to convice us that Apple don't sell useless upgrade in previous blog entries and now Apple sells OSX upgrade for 29$ ... Incredible...
qaelith.2112
on Oct 29, 2009
Good for you for sticking up for yourself, Paul. I happen to be one of those who purchased 3 upgrade discs (the $49 pre-order), and I have way more than enough Vista, XP, and 2000 licenses to qualify me for these 3 and several more. I reinstall my OS every so often. I didn't want to fool with installing two OSes every time I did this, nor did I want to forego a truly clean install for the best post-install experience. Your tip was exactly what I needed, and over the long run it's going to save me a great deal of time and trouble with these three systems. Thank you again, and here's another example for Microsoft of a beneficiary of this tip who IS NOT A PIRATE or LICENSE ABUSER.
yoshipod
on Oct 29, 2009
EricoF3 said: "Ok so now Apple sell Upgrade too... All apple *fan* here pass a conciderable amount off time to convice us that Apple don't sell useless upgrade in previous blog entries and now Apple sells OSX upgrade for 29$ ... Incredible..." No, the Mac users have been claiming that Apple only sells full versions. Its others that claim Apple only sells upgrades.
EricoF3
on Oct 29, 2009
@yoshipod: rr0de74@live.com just told above that Apple sell 29$ upgrade...
EricoF3
on Oct 29, 2009
So Apple don't sell OSX upgrades...
whiplash55
on Oct 29, 2009
@rrode "Are you going to buy a new copy of Windows 7" No I have my Vista install disks, a full retail version of Vista Ultimate I got on sale. What will people do who buy new computers that the vendors are too cheap to include restore media, they have activated copies of Vista or XP on there motherboards MS knows this, they should be able to do a clean install with upgrade media but will have to call MS.
yoshipod
on Oct 29, 2009
" rr0de74@live.com just told above that Apple sell 29$ upgrade..." I must be missing that. I don't see any post where he mentions a $29 upgrade.
rr0de74@live.com
on Oct 29, 2009
So Apple has an upgrade price for the product which is something entirely different from..... The actual media/code is the full install and does not do any checking of what its being installed on or has no method for checking if there is a previous OS. This is bad how? Why does it matter if they have a upgrade price yet the media is not really upgrade media? Sure some people will abuse it, 99% of which will be owners of Apple hardware. I think Apple cares, but not so much because their real money comes from hardware sales. Vs MS who has to care because they dont sell hardware....or enough that either works (360) or matters (Zune) and their real money comes from software sales.
lotsamystuff
on Oct 29, 2009
@mikegalos: "Because the license agreement doesn't allow you to install it on any computer but an Apple Macintosh which ONLY is available with a Mac OS X license." Dude, here's the difference. With Windows, if you try to install a Vista "upgrade" on a bare drive, and you don't have your original program discs, you have to resort to Paul's published hack. The OSX installer requires no such calisthenics. Technically, without that Windows disc, you're in violation of the licensing agreement, but not with OSX. You don't have to call the manufacturer for the OEM CD, or take WaeWrong's advice and contact some dodgy third party to try to find one, hoping against hope that it's still available. You just install the damn thing. Simple. You can use whatever semantic trick you want to call it an "ugrade", but it's a full version. Period. @Waethorn: "Each one sold subsidizes the Steve Jobs Hospice Fund." That's exactly the kind of classless comment I'd expect from you, "WaeWrong". Thanks for not letting me down. I find it fascinating that the only people here not defending Paul are the über-WinJihadist and the Bargain Basement System Builder. Interesting.
rr0de74@live.com
on Oct 29, 2009
@whiplash. I have many times for relatives and family friends taken a brand new Vista computer wiped the drive clean, installed the same version that was on the computer from media I had, and used the key on the sticker. It does not work and you must call MS. I tell them exactly what I did and they give me a very long code to type in and it then works fine. I do this to get rid of all of the junk on the box and install only what they need. Its a pain but I have seriously done this probably 15 times and it always works. I would think that 7 would be the same thing.
rr0de74@live.com
on Oct 29, 2009
WaeWrong that is perfect!!!
Waethorn
on Oct 29, 2009
"That's exactly the kind of classless comment I'd expect from you" Ya, you know, cuz calling Ballmer "Monkey Boy" is so much more mature.
resplendent
on Oct 29, 2009
As the only requirement is that you own an eligible license of a previous version of Windows, why doesn't it just ask for that license key? While not everyone has their install media anymore, if they're running a legit copy of windows (the only people eligible *anyway*) they will be able to easily find their product key. A simple confirmation during the install process that they in fact have a legal license seems a fairly simple and painless way to go about it. No mucking about with installing twice or "hacks."
robertsjoe
on Oct 29, 2009
Windows 7, innovative? Welcome to 2001. http://twitpic.com/nffz6
robertsjoe
on Oct 29, 2009
@dhipstadmin: "I've noticed a trend among the Apple lovers now that Windows 7 is out and is actually quite good." This is what all you Microtards said when Vista came out. Look at how badly that ended. nice try.
Backup77
on Oct 29, 2009
Good post Paul Some common sense where none is forthcoming from Microsoft. You are correct in saying that Microsoft should have documented this long ago instead of leaving genuine users up in the air. Instead of clarity we get muddy waters.
Backup77
on Oct 29, 2009
If Microsoft had set this (upgrade media) up properly there would or should not be a need for hacking into the windows registry. They had plenty of time between RTM and GA to educate users about all upgrade scenario's and document it clearly.
anomander rake
on Oct 29, 2009
I'm a bit confused here. If you purchaed the upgrade, isn't that all you should be able to do? If you want a clean install, buy the full version. Seems simple to me. And although I am a confirmed Windows guy, this does have a faint ring of "getting around" the EULA to it. Or as it's commonly called "Piracy". You really can't blame Microsoft for putting a stop to this nonsense and Paul can whine all he wants but Microsoft is right.
whiplash55
on Oct 29, 2009
Paul's main point is about the lack of communication from Microsoft. The fact is the upgrade media will do a clean install if your drive had a copy of Vista, XP, or 2000 already on it. But what if your hard drive is small or getting dicey and you want to upgrade the hard drive. Is it reasonable to expect us to clone our old drive onto the new one just to blow the partition away and do a clean install?
DRWAM
on Oct 29, 2009
Paul, YOU DA MAN!!!! Your consumer advocate hat cannot be topped by many. As you said, if you have a legal license to upgrade, then you are not pirating. Keep the faith bro. Doc
gfryesc1
on Oct 29, 2009
Microsoft's position is puzzling. If we didn't have the registry option we would all just do the double install like we did with vista. So in essence, Microsoft would rather make it as difficult as possible on their users to use their product. Design decisions like this one gave us Vista's UAC. I did thoroughly enjoy Paul's indignation. He just cannot take any criticism of his position ever, he derails when it happens.
A Friendly Geek
on Oct 29, 2009
Microsoft brought this problem on themselves by not making a simple way for a person to upgrade. Why not just allow someone to put their previous legal key in to allow the install? Given the intellect in Redmond, I'm continually surprised by the lack of common sense.
EricoF3
on Oct 29, 2009
@gfryesc1: go play in trafic
subzerohitman721
on Oct 29, 2009
Paul, Thank you for standing up for Windows users. The two things that absolutely annoy the hell out of me with Windows has to be Windows Genuine Advantage and the BS upgrade dog and pony show we have to go through. This is where I'm with Mac users. Cut the crap, Microsoft. Make this SIMPLE! When is Microsoft going to figure out their draconian schemes DO NOT WORK?!?!?! All this means of protection catches most times legitimate persons who have own multiple copies of Windows XP or Vista and are getting screwed. I think for the Windows 8 milestone, beta, and RC program, we need to make it clear that Microsoft needs to end this criminalization of consumers and make this thing smooth. I also think WGA needs to be scaled back. Instead of criminalizing the end user, it needs to be pro end user. I think users need to make it clear, this is two areas we want improved dramatically. Now I do hope that in the Windows 8 timeline, we end the multi sku scheme. A lot of stuff to bring to the next testing for the next version.
Waethorn
on Oct 29, 2009
"Cut the crap, Microsoft. Make this SIMPLE! When is Microsoft going to figure out their draconian schemes DO NOT WORK?!?!?! All this means of protection catches most times legitimate persons who have own multiple copies of Windows XP or Vista and are getting screwed." The argument is that for every 1 person that does this legitimately, there are probably 10 people that won't pay full price for a license, or will install the same license on multiple PC's. I get asked that at least once a week: "why can't I run the same copy on multiple PC's? I own a legitimate copy...." That's just not how it works. 1 license per PC, and this stops most of the casual copiers. The percentage of casual copiers would easily outnumber the count of "real pirates" if they didn't have these kinds of antipiracy measures in place. After all, look what the MP3 format did to music. The creators never thought about copy control, and some enterprising individuals took advantage of that - they created Napster. The rest is history, as is the formerly-thriving music industry. It's Microsoft's product, and they choose how to license it. If you don't like it, don't use it. It hasn't prevented most people from giving it up though.
rr0de74@live.com
on Oct 29, 2009
Microsoft really does not care. If they did the upgrade would be simple and there would be a single version, Ultimate, for $99 or whatever. They don't care because 99% of Windows 7 sales are going to come from corporate SA agreements or new consumer PC's. The 1% that actually purchase an upgrade (actually purchase not pirate) can basically kiss their arseeee. All this biatching and moaning is a total waste of time.
robertsjoe
on Oct 29, 2009
Interesting study about Windows and OS X users http://www.airbagindustries.com/archives/airbag/spaceman.php Extremely accurate results.
zillatech
on Oct 29, 2009
Great job Paul! I bought (2) copies of the Windows 7 Upgrade Software because it was such a deal and I fully expected that I could do a clean install on my PC or any of my future PC's (only 1 per license) with the upgrade media as long as I provided my valid XP or Vista license (which I have both). WTF MS, I suppose your daring ppl to pirate, we'll if you keep pulling this BS, that's exactly what ppl will do! Its your own damn fault for not clarifying and that little pawn partner posting his blogs about SuperSite and others "hacking" the install and "Shut It" !!!
lketchum
on Oct 29, 2009
Why is anyone insisting that Microsoft was in any way ambiguous? Upgrade options have been very clear. One may perform an in-place upgrade or a clean install where Vista is installed. One has to perform a "custom" / clean install if they are upgrading from Windows XP. In all cases, custom/clean, or in-place, an authorized product has to be installed first. Paul and others insist that one should be able to use a clean drive without an authorized product being present. The terms are clear - you cannot - even though technically you may be able to get away with it. Paul contends that all these people already own a qualifiying product. Really? Truly qualified? How would Microsoft know that. Bottom line. If you want to do clean installs on wiped, or new hard drives, install an authorized product first, or buy a full retail copy of the product. Do not buy OEM copies and think you are kidding anyone - those are intended for guys like me who build systems for people. The rules are the rules. Either play by them, or do not - but spare any of us the outrage. If you do not like the rules, don't buy the product. If enough people also do not buy the product, the rules will change and the company will sell for less, or change the rules.

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