It's Official: Apple Jumps the Shark

tayme: right, right... :-D

@Mike, And so we agree, it would seem. I do recognize how little goes to small farms as well as how much bizarre corrupt pork is embedded in every bill. When laws are 500 pages, nobody reads them. When the rule books they create are equally long, nobody but moneyed lawyers can decipher them. It's inherent in the nature of government to incrementally consume and expand with no check or balance. Look at the mission creep in the government agencies, the FCC being just one of many. That agency is nothing more than a tool used by big corporations to try and gain advantage over their competitors for monopoly maintenance. Hence the ever-rising cost of our cable bills despite the ever shrinking cost of telecom gear. Government subsidy and regulation are demonstrably a negative in most areas. I'm not an anarchist and markets need rules to function and prevent gaming and collusion, but government subsidies and central planning or price/wage controls are an absolute failure worldwide. Anyone excited about a larger role for government overall is living in a fantasy land (or a university). No mechanism on earth has been demonstrated to more effectively distribute finite resources or discover prices and drive those prices down than free markets.

@Mike, You NEED to read The Black Swan. Seriously. You should go buy that book or audible right now.

John Where we disagree is on the role of government. I've seen government do wonderful things. Things that were in the best interests of the nation but that didn't offer enough profit for "the private sector" to do it. Things that put the needs of the country above the needs of profit margins and shareholder ROI. Things that require patriotism rather than greed.These have been lacking over the last 28 years and hopefully we'll see a return to them. Those who govern with the philosophy of "government is the problem" tend to make that self-fulfilling and we need them out of the sacred duty that they hold in obvious contempt. We DO agree on the changes in House procedure that allow for bills to be submitted in the middle of the night and passed without reading that morning or that moved the majority of bills in the Senate to be voted on under the "emergency legislation" provision that allows voting without time for debate or review. And I condemn both Tom DeLay and the rest of his crew for changing the procedures to block discussion and force partisan votes. Hopefully both parties will agree to undo that damage.

btw: For those who both like "I'm a PC" actor John Hodgeman and openly liberal TV analyst Rachel Maddow, Hodgeman was on her show tonight. His post-show comment, "Rachel Maddow is too smart. She is like an unstoppable smart machine." Personally, I have respect for both of them but wish Hodgeman would find respectable work. :-)

btw... sorry for continuing the thread hijack. I can't help but find economics more interesting at this point than nonsensical hemming and hawing over corporate advertising. Call me crazy.

Mike, You don't think that the "Vista Capable" was part of Microsoft's marketing? You don't think that the "Get the facts" campaign was part of Microsoft's marketing? So do you think that the story I linked to in which MS had to PULL its "Get the Facts" ads in the UK, was fiction? You sir, have been drinking way too much f-ing MS koolaid. Regards Joe

Mike, Oh yea, that little thing about DR-Dos, I did a little follow up reading. This from the LA Times, Gates asked in an ensuing e-mail if there wasn’t a way to make an application “run with MS-DOS and not run DR-DOS.” A Microsoft executive responded that there wasn’t. Nevertheless, according to another e-mail, Gates ordered Microsoft’s programmers to make it appear as if the company’s software was incompatible with DR-DOS by displaying an error message whenever a user had a machine with DR-DOS running on it. Jeremy Butler, then head of Microsoft’s international sales, noted in 1989 that “it only takes a couple of reports about non-compatibility to give the kiss of death to a PC.” The warning sign was used in a variety of Microsoft programs, but the most famous case was when Microsoft embedded the warning in a beta, or preview copy, of Windows 3.1. “Heh, heh, heh … my proposal is to have bambi [a part of Windows 3.1] refuse to run on this alien OS. Comments?” said Phil Barrett, a Microsoft executive, in an e-mail. Microsoft points out that the warning was removed in the final product and argues it is therefore a moot point. But Caldera’s document points out the extremes Microsoft went to to undercut public confidence in DR-DOS. Not only did it send out 15,000 beta copies embedded with the false warnings to analysts, reporters and other opinion leaders in the technology world, but it also set out to deliberately mislead reporters about the problems. Microsoft executive Brad Chase is quoted in an e-mail commenting on the error message: “I think it’s totally rude, reinforces the image that users have of us as the evil ones, etc.” But the campaign went on. Brad Silverberg, a senior Microsoft executive, is quoted in a 1991 e-mail as saying: “We are engaged in a FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) campaign to let the press know about some of the bugs. We’ll provide info a few bugs at a time to stretch it out.” Yes, Mike you may have been some Microserf in the 80s but that doesn't make you privy to all the business tactics used by MS. And from my reading 15,000 copies of a piece of software is a little more than "a few dozen companies" I especially like the quote form Brad Silverberg a senior MS executive "We are engaged in a FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) campaign to let the press know about some of the bugs. We’ll provide info a few bugs at a time to stretch it out.” So yes, MS did pull the bogus bug window prior to the final release of Windows 3.1 but by then the damage was done, the rumor was Dr-Dos wouldn't run all the applications. This is MS, this is their modus opperandi, to sow the seeds in an underhanded way to have to keep from truly competing. How about the FUD about using Open source? How about their backing of SCO in their BS case against linux? Regards Joe Dokes

Joe I was there. I have no idea who wrote that article you're quoting from not the context of the statements (what are 3rd hand reports or "an unnamed source stated" kinds of things) And, back then, Microsoft was small enough that you didn't have secret executive cabals doing evil things. You have Bill in building 6 and Brad in building 1. And I was hearing about it at the same time it was happening. Sorry you can't get me to change the subject... So, again, (and again and again) do you have an example of a Microsoft ad lying about Apple?

Mike: Stop cutting and pasting that ridiculous statement. If not, then at least s/desparation/desperation/ . I see how you might use it for rhetorical purposes but it is a statement from the Blowhard School. Out in the real world :- http://gawker.com/5065956/outrage-apple-continues-to-mock-microsoft "Apple's only problem: the people who buy PCs, such as myself, don't even know what this "Vista" thing is." http://www.adrants.com/2008/10/apple-pokes-fun-at-vistas-300-million.php "While $300 million is certainly a lot of money, it is, no doubt, far less than what Microsoft spends on the development of Vista. Still, the commercial is timely and continues to effectively poke holes in the, rightly or wrongly, tarnished Vista." http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/eric2_0/2008/10/apples-new-ad-h.... "The 30-second spot, which first aired Sunday, is an edgier-than-usual entry into a fun, but always pointed, campaign that a political operative might appreciate." and "A recent survey from Gartner, a tech researcher, found that 61 percent of respondents are thinking about skipping Vista. " I never forget that Apple is still the A/V club fighting against the football jocks so until Apple grow in size I don't mind if the jocks go crying home to Mommy. ps Could you point out where Apple have lied about MS eg some indefensible statement from Apple that could not be described as satire, hyperbole, parody or poking fun.

Mary - "I will do no such bloody thing. You display your arrogance by even asking me! I don't have to confirm something in writing (especially on this Blog!) for it to be true." So Marry - what are you doing in this blog ? By the way Mike Galos is not "Arrogant" on the contrary he is level headed and he has been factual through out this discussion. He has also offered to recant his statement - bring the proof!

Very Interesting! At almost 225 comments no one has come back with an answer to Mike Galos question "So, again, (and again and again) do you have an example of a Microsoft ad lying about Apple?" I wonder why no one has answered MIke Galos his question.

"So, again, (and again and again) do you have an example of a Microsoft ad lying about Apple?" "I wonder why no one has answered MIke Galos his question." That is because NEITHER company has lied about the other. Mike's straw man argument needs put out of its misery. As an aside can one libel a company? "for the purposes of injuring the reputation and good name of such person." Does MS have a reputation and good name to injure? It's like a streetwalker suing after being called a woman of ill repute by another co-worker.

But who has proved that Apple has lied in an ad either. No-one has and no-one here will. Same for Microsoft Over here we have a phrase "economic with the actuality" and is what I was doing with Mike's quotes. I wasn't lying in those quotes but I wasn't forthcoming with the whole truth either. Just as when he said I was as honest as Apple he was implying I was dishonest when what I wrote was factually correct. So unless your both the budget holder for Marketing AND the budget holder for Vista fixes you don't know. Simple as. The ad was funny and plays on the public perception, whether it is a lie is moot. The biggest problem with MS adverts is that, for the most part they meander, and don't attempt to land a clean punch. They need to learn how less is sometimes more.

"The question was whether Microsoft's ads have lied about Apple. None of those are Microsoft ads about Apple." That's because Microsoft have inferior products. So they don't have the ammunition to place strong ads about Apple. All they can do is have lame ads like the recent "I'm a PC" and Seinfeld ads.

And here's an example of Microsoft stealing: http://daringfireball.net/2006/12/microsoft_workgroup_manager_icon Yep, because Microsoft is a poor helpless little innocent flower. Come on!

@master3: are you in denial? They stole that icon. Plain and simple. Then when they got caught they removed it.

Wow, I wake up and see over two hundred posts! I saw said ad on TV. My wife [who has never used a Mac] laughed. I asked her if she believed it and she said 'No', because it's a 'satire' that could be based on truth or not, but a satire. however, the 'Apple tax' statement from MS is totally wrong. If the buying strategy was the norm, I should know at least one Mac user that did something close to it, but I know of no one. This kind of news [Apple Tax] can devastate sales, but the Mac ads, after a 3 year run, haven't hurt MS one bit. And the Apple Tax statement has absolutely no basis of truth, but is a plain old BS, a list of as many updates as they can find for a Mac and as little as possible for Windows. BTW, I can reme,ber some from MS stating that the iPhone was the most expesive phone in the world, when it was not as well. Or Bill stating that Mac are 'getting broken into every day', when confronted with Windows security issues. I'm not stating that Apple's satirical Ads are proper, but the behavior that hurts business more s that of MS, since Apple's ads don't seem hurt MS at all, as stated above by net revenue in two weeks = Apple's annual net, whcih is what someone stated above. Still, Apple laptops are overpriced, especially the MBP. You really must have a need for Leopard or be a Mac lover to buy it.

@drwam: "BTW, I can reme,ber some from MS stating that the iPhone was the most expesive phone in the world, when it was not as well." I remember that as well. You looked at him saying that and couldn't believe it. Well, I guess the guy's so out of touch.

Next up on WTN: The "L" Word, starring Steve Jobs.

"What?! When the ads mention "Mac" it means OS X. The thing is, if your product is inferior, you'd be pretty lame to mention it in your ads. Hence why Microsoft does not fire back a direct shot at Apple. Which is surprising, since Microsoft is lame." Again more anise BS. OSX = operating system Mac = Macintosh = Computer How many times have you seen OSX mentioned? How many times have you've seen it being used in their ad? Seeing that they dont, I guess its safe to say that OSX is lame. And yes i read your "brilliant" expose of the corporate conspiracy at MS to "steal" Apple's precious icon. And it still read as a person with no life catching a lazy webpage hack designer at Microsoft. Or our we to expect Balmer to be frogged marched into federal prison for that?

Chuckb84: Your 9:07pm comment: Appreciate your comment there. Thanks. Mike Galos: I've been a looooong time reader of Spencer Katt!! Shark: I can't give it up. Cause when you know that people are saying untruths you have to stand up. Look at Mike G. and his fight against the Apple crazies here :-) By the way, I've decided next month I'm purchasing the new style Macbook. Hmm...should I put the little Apple logo sicker on the back window of my Jag XJ? Maybe right next to my "FUND SDI" sticker...and that is next to my "Membership Ted Nugent Hunt Club" sticker. Who was it in this thread that did not understand my reference to liberals and San Fransisco? Who doesn't make that connection? I'll give you a hint: history of SF, Nancy Pelosi is the Rep. Code Pink is founded there...and Michael Moore should be Mayor there, the city council voted to have the Marines kicked out of the city, oh and I believe the City Council once voted to give Gorbachev a medal for ending the Cold War. So see there is the history of SF being a liberal/commie area. By the way my favorite Presidents are Calvin Coolidge, Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush. There I said and I'm proud to say it! By the way Mike G. : Even though you're apparently a screaming liberal I still believe you're a "Good American" :-)

"This crisis may very well have never happened if the Fed hadn't used their open market operations to keep interest rates below their natural market level given the demand for lending." I don't agree with you very much John, but I got to hand it to you, you have summarized one of the core problems that existed. Rather than let the economy air out it's dirty laundry with a correction years ago, the rates were kept low to stimulate growth. However, you can only stimulate so much, like what we had here last week(s). Which is the way he wants it. Well, he get's it. I don't like it anymore than you John. ;) Anywho, look at Japan. They have interest rates so low that they can no longer stimulate. Back on topic, I can't see why Apple would attack the ads. Really, doesn't make sense. If you want to talk about marketing money not well spent, well this type of ad is more of a wink and a handshake to the most ardent fans of the company. It will fall on generally deaf ears with a topic that is so obscure. Was it childish? I don't know, but they could direct their resources in another direction. However, the ads are fair game generally. Don't hate the players, hate the game.

This ad is funnier anyway: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ7SWFxx0WE

Dip: Well said, man... You are absolutely right. I wish the game would change :-( Cheers,