Microsoft: Seriously, we're listening to your Windows 7 feedback

And that explains why so many major changes have occurred since the Beta, I guess. It's nice having an impact on product development.

Sigh.

Anyway, Steven Sinofsky has addressed widespread criticism from beta testers and others (yes, including myself) that Microsoft is not listening to feedback and will not change Windows 7 in any appreciable way as a result. It starts off with the same mysteriously claim I've heard again and again. No, you won't be impacting the design of Windows 7. But someone did. Someone outside of Microsoft. Seriously, it happened before the beta even started. We listened. Really, we did.

Here's how he words it (the emphasis is mine):

By the time we've got running code thousands of people outside of Microsoft have provided input and influenced the feature set and design of Windows 7. As we're developing the features for Windows 7 we work closely with PC makers, enterprise customers, and all types of customers across small business, education, enthusiasts, product reviewers and industry "thought leaders", and so on.  We shape the overall "blueprint" of the release based on this wide variety of input.  As we have design prototypes or code running, we have much more targeted and specific feedback by using tools such as usability tests, concept tests, benchmark studies, and other techniques to validate the implementation of this blueprint. Our goal with this level of feedback is for it to be representative of the broad set of Windows customers, even if we don't have a 1:1 interaction with each and every customer.

Who are these "thousands of people"? Why are they not on the technical beta? Why did the tech beta not get code until almost a month after the Beta build was created?

The real problem here is that the feature set of Windows 7 was frozen well before the Beta release. So the feedback he discusses throughout this post is 99 percent bug testing, really (and 1 percent, we hear your concerns but have a million reasons why we can't change a thing):

In the first few weeks of the Windows 7 beta we had over one million people install and use Windows 7.

It has been a lot of work for us--but work that helps to raise the quality of Windows 7.

We have fixes in the pipeline for nearly 2,000 bugs in Windows code.

...

While writing this post, I received a “bug report” email with the explicit statement “is Microsoft going to side step this issue despite the magnitude of the problem” along with the inevitable “Microsoft never listens to feedback”. Receiving mail like this is tough—we’re in the doghouse before we even start.

You know, I'm sorry. I find this to be disingenuous. This bug report is representative of the feedback you get specifically because you have, in fact, been ignoring testers all along. I'm not talking about bug fixes. Fixing bugs is pretty much the minimum we expect. I'm talking about making necessary functional changes to a product that was essentially set in stone months before you handed it to anyone. The mindset over there appears to be that Microsoft knows best. That's where this attitude comes from. If you're in a dog house, it's a dog house of your own making.

Discuss this Article 26

BrightrevCarl
on Feb 25, 2009
I disagree completely with all of the handwringing on Windows 7 feedback. If you let thousands of Beta testers have veto power over every feature, you'll never get anything done. For everyone who hates a feature, you can find someone else who loves it. Case in point - I think the default Windows 7 taskbar mode is fine and will be easier for non-technical users to understand. Paul doesn't like the feature and wants it changed to "Combine when taskbar is full." No offense Paul, but it appears from the outside that your repeated references to Microsoft "not listening" are a direct result of Microsoft not changing this specific feature for you and others who don't like it. Microsoft's approach to Windows 7 development is right. There is a fine line between listening to people and letting the mob delay a project forever. No one wants to hear it, but the right choice on large projects is usually to make the best decision you can and stick to it.
DRWAM
on Feb 25, 2009
I guess that they can't listen to everyone. The volume would be enormous. Just my limited number on the physician IT committee create so many demands in many different directions that it makes IT heads spin. What should count is speed, security and stability. Subzerohitman had it right about Safari. Computers are very fast these days, so we need the browser to be secure rather than one millisecond to load a web page. It your computer gets hijacked, all the speed in the world won't help you.
WebGuy3000
on Feb 25, 2009
A beta release is by definition feature-complete, so I don't think it makes much sense to get all riled up about MS not making feature changes based on feedback to this release. Now if you could talk them into doing a public alpha release...
johnbaxter
on Feb 25, 2009
They really do do extensive user testing. I have been there (but only once, as travel and scheduling are difficult--no later than late afternoon and about 3 hours ferry and driving). I happily received Office '98 for my troubles. And yes, the trouble I had with the task I was assigned during the test did lead to a design change (easily seen in the final Office '98) (I mean '98--Macintosh.) They kept calling with offers which either I was too busy or too sick (that's done with) to take up, or they wanted different people than I am (I run servers but not Microsoft servers, for example). They do this on the Redmond campus; I don't know where else (I suspect many countries--possibly not many venues per country).
yipcanjo
on Feb 25, 2009
This post seems a bit over-the-top, Paul. You state that "Microsoft knows best", or atleast they think they do. Would it be better to assume that "every user on the planet knows best"? I stuck with the Windows 2000-style start menu well into the Vista release time period because "I knew best". Come to find out that the updated Start Menu (introduced with XP) was better all along. But crap if Microsoft didn't listen to me! Just because they're not implementing every requested change doesn't mean they're not listening.
lotsamystuff
on Feb 25, 2009
BrightrevCarl is exactly right. "The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire
jeffsters
on Feb 25, 2009
As a software product manager I can tell you that Beta is "supposed" to be declared when the product feature complete and frozen. The purpose of a Beta is NOT to get feedback on anything more than bugs and if needed PULL features out that can't be fixed in time for first customer ship. That's the way it's supposed to work. Sure you may, at times TWEEK, the UI but even UI freeze has to be close or your help and printed documentation won't be ready. I've been in a number of Microsoft focus groups this past year and they do many of them where they present a problem and different UI's to handle that problem. I didn't get any of the Win7 groups but I can see how they use them. If MS uses beta to test UI and features they would have to make changes pull the beta do regression testing and start a new beta. It's just not ho software is done. The issues you are all identifying SHOULD have been identified in the product and market requirements LONG BEFORE now or discovered in subsequent user testing and advisory boards. IMHO!
Dipsh t Admin
on Feb 25, 2009
I think this is a case of MS actually bending over backwards explaining every step of the way in a much more transparent way than was ever done before in a large scale development project such as this. This has created expectations that everyone's pet problem with the OS will be solved. This is simply not the case, neither can it be. Paul, if MS were do as you speak, the development cycle would extend for a very long time out and would be a nightmare to manage and deliver a quality product. MS is doing exactly what they said they would do in the beginning.
shark47
on Feb 25, 2009
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire Awesome! I I've never heard that one before, but that quote sure is useful.
dhaval001
on Feb 25, 2009
I will agree with Paul on this one guys. I can't believe so many people are against it and have only one argument. "Oh Microsoft will not listen to every single one of them"...well it is fair point. But what Paul is saying is Microsoft is not ready to listen at all here. It is not that Microsoft agreed to listen to user feedback for features for Windows 7 and then are not ready to implement any of them. They are not ready to consider user's requests at all. It is kind of hard to explain at this stage. Obviously Windows 7 will be with more people once it is released than it currently is. Now, if after it RTMs and then millions of people worldwide get it and then complain about the new Windows Taskbar, what will Microsoft do? Oh yeah...a service pack and silently add a feature to change it. Remember Windows Firewall in XP SP2? Tell me what percentage of Windows users changed the Windows Start menu in XP after it was released, whether it is better than the classic one or not? The biggest point for a general user for using Windows, in my opinion, over all other OSes is that it is easy to use. If you take that away then what's the point of using windows? And you MAC lovers, price is also one of them. Cheaper is also "easier". Don't tell me you don't shop around when you buy a MAC. You know what, if you go with the MAC tradition, you should actually buy from a shop where it is most expensive :) What Microsoft doesn't realize is that even "thousands" of testers can also be wrong if the "millions" of actual end users find a feature very annoying. I remember a podcast during the times of Vista, it was a technet podcast involving a Microsoft employee who said the WinFS was pulled from Vista because they thought it will confuse the end users. With Windows 7, things at Microsoft has changed for sure. I agree with you completely Paul. Dhaval
DRWAM
on Feb 25, 2009
Actually shark, I have posted "the enemy of good is perfect' " a few times at this blog. I have posted a modified version which I prefer,"the enemy of good is 'better' ". This is especially true when performing therapeutic interventional radiology procedures. dhava, I know many that just go to the Apple store to buy a Mac, without checking prices any where else. Three friends have done it in the past month, then told later about the purchase. I just didn't have the heart to tell that that it they could have saved a few bucks elsewhere.
Victek
on Feb 25, 2009
Although it may be technically correct for the feature set to be frozen before the beta is released, it would help if Microsoft would address the perception that they don't listen to user input. Yes they are a very big company and the larger a company is the harder it is to appear responsive to customers, but I don't get the impression that appearing responsive is a priority for them. For example, how about the recent discovery that UAC in the Windows 7 beta could be turned off by malware without warning (because the default setting does not prompt the user when changing UAC settings)? Did Microsoft say "wow guys, thanks for finding this - we're going to change it so adjusting UAC settings always prompts the user"? No, they first said that UAC works exactly the way it's supposed to, and then said they had always intended to change it and were not responding to the users who brought it to their attention. In other words, they went out of their way to tell us they don't care what we think. It's more important to them to appear incapable of error. This is pretty infantile and demonstrates quite clearly that they incapable of accepting feedback and having a constructive dialogue with users.
johnbaxter
on Feb 25, 2009
Microsoft is using "Beta" as I knew the term in "the old days" (before the 8080 chip and friends). Feature complete with maybe some UI glitches (as in item placement off a small distance). (In those days, there wasn't a "Release Candidate" stage. I actually remember seeing an RC9 of something (which turned up to be unsuccessful for some reason). Far too many developers have turned "Beta" into "please give us free design help, people, then we'll figure out the specs for this thing". Resulting in extreme cases of design-by-committee. (Google goes off in a different direction with "here it is, but we're not responsible for it".) I remember (and participated in) a period in which the idea was to write the product manual (remember those?) first, then code the product from the camera-ready manual. That tended to keep feature creep under control--it also resulted in occasional "Oops, we don't know how to do that." There are a couple of recurring themes I encounter (but not so much in this instance): 1. I wouldn't have done it that way, therefore it is wrong. (The problem with that ought to be self-evident.) 2. I told them XXX and they didn't implement that suggestion, therefore they ignored me. (Much more likely, they looked at the idea either from you or someone else, saw why it didn't work or didn't fit with what they had in mind, and didn't implement it.) It's probably natural to think "I've been ignored" in preference to "I've been rejected".
rjohn05
on Feb 25, 2009
Don't they have a way for users to submit bug reports? Did they not say they have 2000+ bugs in the pipeline to be fixed? I don't understand how anyone can say they are not listening just because they do not see major changes being made to the OS. Paul is pretty pissed about the task bar and how Microsoft has not listened to him about it. I actually like it. It will take some getting used to but I look forward to using it because I think it is better than what we have now.
DarkSages
on Feb 25, 2009
I think that the main feedback that they took from us was with windows vista. The feedback on windows 7 will be used to make windows 8, it's allways been like that. As long as window 7 runs better than vista, so far so good, I don't care (not that vista was horrible windows 7 s much better). I rather have a bug free windows 7 than a bugy nice looking desktop or taskbar or what ever. Let them finish windows 7, so the can move on to windows 8 or what ever. We all know that microsoft is going to folow this rutine for now on, every two years or or so an update. Apple has been doing that for ever.
subzerohitman721
on Feb 25, 2009
Paul, I also have to disagree with you here. If you've read Sinofsky's blog as often as I have, Sinofsky or a member of his team weighs in with specific points that do make good changes before and after the beta. I would think the changes to the UAC were prompted more by users feedback more than internal changes. The UAC flaw was a big black eye in the public's perception and potentially as an actual flaw if someone figured the best ways to exploit it. They had to respond and make user changes based on this information made public. Just because you dislike the taskbar, is not a reason to trash the beta project. Do you know Microsoft is listening to users? When I reported a problem with Samsung phones having a problem with driver's and no device stage information, I recieved a response from Microsoft with an updated drivers submitted from Samsung. As soon as they were uploaded and properly installed, all of the sync programs and software was working properly. This was 48 hours after I sent the problem. If Microsoft was completely ignoring users, then why would MIcrosoft take the time to resolve this issue? If I was just one of millions of users and there are more users of other phones than Samsung ones, then why address such an issue? This isn't the only time. However, this was the first instance that I remember that I had specifically archived. Others I had were drivers for my video monitor and my hard drive. Both Sprint and Samsung provided Vista era drivers that should have worked but didn't. Obviously some work by both Microsoft and Samsung had to occur to address this issue. However, for the most part, I'm very excited and pleased with MIcrosoft's response to the beta. However, I reserve full judgement until we have a RTM version running.
Mum
on Feb 25, 2009
"You know what, if you go with the MAC tradition, you should actually buy from a shop where it is most expensive :)" No. You buy where it's easiest. That makes it cheapest as well. Shopping around and reading specs takes time, which is the most expensive asset. When it comes to letting people decide what features to add to your product... Well that's the stupidest thing you could do.
Waethorn
on Feb 26, 2009
"When it comes to letting people decide what features to add to your product... Well that's the stupidest thing you could do." Ya, you know, cuz giving people what they want rather than telling them what they want is just ridiculous....
DRWAM
on Feb 26, 2009
Well, there's what's 'ideal' and then there's what's 'practical'. Companies must try to balance the two, while staying within budget and a time line. I see enough survey's about my offices from patients that just expect impractical suggestions, some of which are self serving, and may be bad for other patients. I can tell you all from experience, that it ain't easy.
panache1023
on Feb 26, 2009
Waethorn, you need to stop repeating Mike Galos's "giving people what they want rather than telling them what they want" No company TELLS ANYONE what they want. Since you are referring to Apple here....Apple offers particular computers with particular hardware configurations. If someone WANTS it, they buy it. If they DON'T want it, they DON'T buy it. Apple has never said, "this is what you want"...they say, "this is what we offer" I know by reading your posts on this site for a while now that you are too dumb to realize the difference.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Feb 26, 2009
And speaking of 'Mike Galos's "giving people what they want rather than telling them what they want"'... The Engineering Windows 7 blog today features Three Dozen changes made between Beta and RC mostly from user feedback - Examples of "Giving people what they want rather than telling them what they want" as I apparently say or "Customer in Control" as the Windows team calls it. See: http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/2009/02/26/some-changes-since-beta.aspx
panache1023
on Feb 26, 2009
Mike Galos, I was not inferring that MS does not give customers what they want (and sometimes what they don't), or offer them a bunch of choices, some of which will satisfy a large number of people. I was saying that Apple is not TELLING people anything. They offer certain product lines. If people like it, or want it, they buy it. If not, they don't. If you, or someone else doesn't like Apple, the choices they give or whatever it is, that's fine. But it doesn't make it the case that Apple is dictating anything.
jonathanmarston
on Feb 26, 2009
It really seems like Paul is just upset that he wasn't consulted before the new taskbar was decided on. Sorry to tell you this, Paul, but a lot more people like it than those that dislike it, and your opinion isn't worth any more than the next guys. Actually, with the constant whining that has even come to the point where you are ignoring facts to make your point, I'd say if anything you've made your opinion worth less. I used to come here to get insight into Microsoft and Windows. I don't think I'll bother anymore...
Dipsh t Admin
on Feb 26, 2009
panache, you're missing the point. What wae is talking about is the developers of the software telling you what you want, as in they decide what features to implement. All software companies work in the same way in regards to features. Paul seems to be advocating a group think for OS features here, which is only somewhat useful in the instance of an OS.
Waethorn
on Feb 26, 2009
"Since you are referring to Apple here...." I never said that. What's that saying about putting things into other peoples mouths? Since, by your own implications, you are admitting that is what Apple does, I accept your apology on the behalf of anybody that wanted to change options in Apple's software, but couldn't.
panache1023
on Feb 26, 2009
Again Wae, Im not admitting anything. There's not to admit Like I said, Apple OFFERS their software and hardware. They don't TELL anyone anything. Those who like it or want it, but it. Those who don't, don't buy it. And it's obvious you are referring to Apple. Anyone who's ever read anything you post regarding Apple, or anything not about MS, knows exactly which entities you are referring to.

Please or Register to post comments.

IT/Dev Connections

Las Vegas
September 30th - October 4th

Paul ThurottYou'll have the opportunity to experience:
• 120 Technical
Sessions
• Networking with Peers
• Expert Speakers


Come See Paul Thurrott & Mary Jo Foley in Person!

Register Now

Office 365 InfoCenter

Get the latest insight and info from Paul

Read Now!

What I Use