Microsoft Signature Software

Windows Essentials, like Mail? You mean, you buy an OS that has no mail? Wow! That's even worse than an iPhone that has no MMS.

I can see why Security Essentials isn't included - MS would probably have another lawsuit on their hands. Adobe Flash and Reader (I use FoxIt for PDF's, but oh well) are not MS products, but I can see why they would be needed. Zune 4.0 is awesome - I haven't even seen or used WMP 12 in Windows 7. WL Essentials - the Photo Gallery and Messenger are two apps I can't do without.

I have to disagree with the boundling arguments: it is good that you can install a barebone Windows. If you use other software (AVG, Google Earth, Google Search, iTunes, GMail...) you do not need to see these MS links on your PC. If you decide to opt in to the MS ecosystem, the software can be downloaded and installed in under 20 minutes. PC makers should make these items optional in their online configurators, so everyone can have the benefit of choice.

Paul, Seriously - why isn't Zune and some other MS software included in Windows? You really have to ask that? ANTI-TRUST. That's why. They included IE in Windows - and looked what happened. We have now reached a point to where some moron will say something along the lines of why doesn't MS offer choice screens for competing softwares like they do with IE? How many choice screens do you want? I don't even want the browser choice screen (thank God I don't live in the EU). JamesNT

How painful for people to still be on dialup in this day and age. Heck, wireless HSPA would be much more tolerable. Either way, good customer service would warrant the mailout of a CD with a handful of email clients for customers to choose from.

Good points by many folks in here. I agree that instead of crapware, just bundle a CD or DVD with additional content. That way its optional, the end user has to put the disk into the drive, acknowledge the EULA agreements, and you have to administer the installation. This is a way for Mozilla, Opera, Apple, and just about anyone to get their foot in the door. CD's and DVD's are so cheap these days. Personally, I do hope Microsoft adds to the Windows Live Essentials both the Zune Software and the Microsoft Security Essentials. I just want Microsoft to put the finishing touches to Zune Software to ultimately replace Windows Media Player. To solve the dialup issues, we need infrastructure improvements to our broadband networks. At least enough to finally end dialup service and offer cable, satellite, and DSL service nationwide. I just hope we can get it done.

"You really have to ask that? ANTI-TRUST. That's why. They included IE in Windows - and looked what happened." Its not so much that they included IE, its that they did just about everything possible to lock out other competing browsers. Exclusive deals, claiming that IE was part of the OS, intentionally making their sites rending wrong in other browsers, not being able to delete it, etc. Had Microsoft just included IE with Windows and not done all that other stuff to lock out Netscape, Opera, etc., I doubt the anti-trust shadow would be so large that they would not include all these other applications that would be useful to many users.

I'd like to see Microsoft offer this as a single DVD package to System Builders.

I hope this isn't OT :-) I agree about including a cd/dvd with the MS software like Live mail. I have a few relatives that for example live in Northern Michigan and can only get dial up. Now here is a company offering wireless: http://www.m33access.com/WirelessResidentialOptions.asp check out this page....I called...and they will come to the home and do a free assessment. But see the top print, the instlal could cost $700-$1,200. What on god's earth could that cost be for? Who in their right mind would pay $700-$1,200 for home internet setup. Anyways, my point is, I guess it's easy to forget about people stuck on dial up and stuck at 28.8K too

Though I agree that most of these software should be part of the OS, I don't think they should ever replace WMP with Zune software. I have tried Zune and it is no where near as good as WMP 12.

@lketchum "Perhaps a bundled CD would work out best and also include the choices Kadarzsolt mentioned." We probably will do a CD of some sort. I just think it's sad that we will have to provide a CD, like we used to do with IE 5.5 and Outlook Express. (We had machines still running Windows 95 that didn't have IE at all, so we had to provide a CD.) Taking the Mail portion out of Windows 7 was probably a good idea - it just isn't for the dial-up users who don't have an Internet email account.

@Ocean "I detest Adobe Reader" So do I! Not only is it slow, it has a lot of security issues! The security alone made me start using Foxit - the user interface in Foxit is a little jarring, but I'm used to it now.

Wow dialup. What happens to these people on patch Tuesday? Do they take their computer to the local library to get on some broadband? The October Patch Tuesday had a lot of updates, probably more than the live mail download.

"But see the top print, the instlal could cost $700-$1,200. What on god's earth could that cost be for? Who in their right mind would pay $700-$1,200 for home internet setup." Usually for a tower. It's the same with some of the long-range WiFi providers around here. If you have a good line-of-sight to the satellite relay, or to another customer that has it, the install is just $300+ for the WiFi relay antenna. Also, someone that I know of that works for Bell [Canada] says that Bell will charge $150 apiece to install phone jacks in a new home....They decided to go with Rogers Home Phone instead, which is a switched cable phone (it doesn't use VoIP packets like most people think it does, but it does use their digital cable network).

BTW: You can buy the same kind of WiFi access point relays that they use for most of these providers. I've set up a few long range WiFi networks for clients that need building-to-building access. I've been using these with complete success: http://www.engeniustech.com/datacom/products/Category.aspx?id=17

"What happens to these people on patch Tuesday?" The downloads start, and continue while their internet access is idle, but connected. When they're ready for installation, the system will install them, and if required, reboot at the preset schedule as usual.

@Waethorn "Most new homes around here only have 1 standard phone jack installed, so the installer has to fish cable through the walls." Same way here, but our guys (having to go through walls, and upstairs, and basements, and attics, and people being hoarders, or in mobile home trailers, or in bricked houses, etc.) usually are at a house about 30 minutes. So, $15 trip charge, $15 for the 30 minutes, and then $1.50/outlet...it's nowhere near the $150. I am not disagreeing with you at all - I just think Bell Canada is putting it to their customers.

" I am not disagreeing with you at all - I just think Bell Canada is putting it to their customers." No doubt there. Their DSL service averages half the speed of Rogers in this area, and it's still the same price (their infrastructure where I am is limited to 5Mbps speeds, where Rogers offers 10Mbps). Well, Bell's price is $51.95/month off-contract, including modem rental, and Rogers is $49.99/month off-contract, including modem rental. Bell advertises their service as "maximum of 12Mbps", but few customers in this area know that they will never get half of that. DSL is a dead-end technology based on a connection that was never designed to carry that kind of bandwidth. Bell chose the wrong option there. Cable scales incredibly well. Rogers offers up to 50Mbps speeds (at a huge premium, mind you) practically everywhere they service cable (the only exception is where they don't have the technology in place at their local switching station yet). Bell also chose the wrong technology for cellphone service - CDMA. When the Teachers Union backed out of buying up most of Bell's stock more than a year ago, Bell's quality of service has fallen and never recovered. They just don't have any money anymore to make drastic infrastructure changes. The next step would be direct-to-home fiber, but they can't afford it. Rogers will be offering some kind of new wireless HDTV option within the next couple of years too, which obviates the requirement for Bell satellite TV at the cottage.

Quick question: Are there US cable providers that lease their lines to sub-providers? They don't have that in Canada. If you get cable anything, there's only 1 company for any region. In this area, it's Rogers. In the West, it's Shaw. In Quebec, it's Videotron. Whoever owns the cable lines in any particular region is the only cable provider you can get. For DSL service, you're using Bell's lines, and they lease out the service to sub-providers, but they (Bell) ultimately control bandwidth and maintenance of the lines and such.

my post should have read "does not make you an expert"...

>The security alone made me start using Foxit - the user interface in Foxit is a little jarring, but I'm used to it now. < This.

This is such a good idea. All the junk always got in the way of Windows. I'm a die hard OS X fan and Apple apologist, but Microsoft has a winner with 7. Copy this, borrow that, whatever, 7 is strong juju.

Panache, I didn't say "I am an expert". In fact, I clearly said I wasn't. Even so, I do know that your assertion is flat out wrong. Period. Anti-trust law was created to benefit the consumer and NOT to guarantee a profitable path for non-competitive companies and their shareholders at the cost of the consumers. You might want study up on Teddy Roosevelt and the Trust Busters before trying to apply post-Reagan "business profits are the only thing sacred" philosophy to areas where they didn't and shouldn't apply.

From Microsoft's Encarta - http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861609865/expertise_(1).html --tayme

@panache1023 - I used Bing to come up with the Encarta links...even though the first one didn't paste in properly. --tayme