Mozilla: Apple undermines the Internet

Man, you gotta love a good buzz phrase. And that’s a good one. It comes from this:

When Mozilla CEO John Lilly lit into Apple for using its software update utility to push Safari to Windows users, he knew he was going to get a rise out of Apple fans.

"I wasn't surprised by the reaction," said Lilly yesterday, talking about the criticism he has received from many online who took exception to his calling Apple's use of the utility "a bad practice" that "ultimately undermines the safety of the Internet."

"When you put Mozilla users and Apple users together, sometimes they poke at each other with sharp sticks," said Lilly. "But I would hope it's not about seeing everything through a partisan lens. This isn't about that. It's not even about [Apple] using the Updater as their distribution channel. It's just about the promise that people make when you provide a security update."

"Apple is a very hard organization to get critical of," he said. "There's always an outpouring of defensive comments.

"Actually, I'm really encouraged by that. It shows the participatory nature of the Internet," Lilly added. "This is a subtle nuanced issue, but this isn't us vs. them."

"The world is a complex place," said Lilly. "There are new offerings on the Internet all the time, and we're all trying to figure out together how to be respectful of users."

This time, though, he made it clear that he thought Apple had stepped over the line. And he was unrepentant for taking on the company. "I think they've undermined the work that we're doing on security and updates," he said.

So we’re sort of beating and “old issue” to death, some might argue. Except that Apple is still pushing its woefully inadequate, buggy, and insecure browser on users in exactly the same manner. I don’t mind being tiring on this issue: Apple’s wrong and they need to stop doing this.

Discuss this Article 76

richardfrisch
on Aug 7, 2008
I always uninstall the Apple Software Updater on my computers, but like a virus it keeps coming back. I also uninstall the MobileMe control panel applet since I do not expect to ever subscribe to MobileMess. I recommend that my Windows clients not use Safari and uninstall it if they downloaded it by "mistake". I recommend that my Mac clients use Firefox and not Safari. Recently, Consumer Reports (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/electronics-computers/computers/inter...) came to a similar conclusion because Safari's anti-phishing technology is MIA.
benjwah
on Aug 8, 2008
Word brother, fight the power Paul! Seriously though, I hate that Apple updating thing.
notawindowsuser
on Aug 8, 2008
Apple undermines the Internet with its software update by pushing Safari on the poor Windows user, LOL Not the gaping hole in the internet's address lookup system that can cause millions of web surfers to receive counterfeit pages, or the SQL injection attack that has infected millions of web pages belonging to businesses and government agencies? No it's Apples software update that undermines the Internet, this has to be the best laugh I've had all week, thanks Paul, keep up the good work.
gorath
on Aug 8, 2008
well "undermining the internet" wasn't pauls claim was it? are you actually retarded or did you really not notice that it was the Mozilla CEO who made the claim? Honest to god, Apple users are really starting to aggravate me.
shark47
on Aug 8, 2008
Too much Apple news, Paul. Yes, I do understand the logic that Windows users are interested in Apple too, but the blog looks like an aggregation service for all the anti-Apple news on the net. It looks like all you care about is the number of comments, because each of these posts seems to initiate flame wars.
notawindowsuser
on Aug 8, 2008
Hey Gorath, Maybe I'm retarded, because I can't find that quote in the article Paul points too or the original blog, I found this in the original blog "It undermines the trust relationship great companies have with their customers" or this "It’s wrong because it undermines the trust that we’re all trying to build with users", but no "Apple undermines the Internet", sorry I just must be a retard, or maybe it's not me that's a retard? http://john.jubjubs.net/2008/03/21/apple-software-update/
Delmont
on Aug 8, 2008
Hey Paul, I am one of the biggest Microsoft fans out there, just like I am very loyal to GM growing up and working for GM in the Flint and Detroit areas. I have a Mac mini too, have taken OS X courses by Apple in Chicago.... And yet at the same time I am interested in Apple. but even I say....I think you need to give us more Microsoft news instead of Apple. Heck, I even hit appleinsider and macrumors to keep current on the Apple side. But I come here for Microsoft news. I want to know when the MSN IM Version 9 is coming out that will utilize the glass effect in Vista. I want to know more about Office 2007, Vista, Mesh, and Sharepoint! I want to know more about IE8. I want to know more about the next Core Duo from Intel this summer I want to know more about Windows Mobile I want to know have you tested the Samsung Blackjack? I want to know about Dell products, especially their Ultra Sharp Flat panels. OK? Enough of Apple. I understand blah blah how Windows users need to know about Apple and all that...but I mean really.....seems like 99% of your posts are Mac/Apple now. I don't mind readying about Apple stuff on your blog and do enjoy it, just when it's become all about Apple I think you need to come back to Redmond
Delmont
on Aug 8, 2008
Paul, Here are some actual Windows related stories: http://blogs.zdnet.com/SAAS/?p=575 http://blogs.zdnet.com/SAAS/?p=576 http://blogs.technet.com/msrc/archive/2008/08/07/august-2008-advance-not... A biggie for Windows users: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/ms08-aug.mspx Let us talk about these topics...the Windows Patches are important to me.
Snakedoctor1
on Aug 8, 2008
@Shark and Delmont.....Yep this is getting old fast. There are other sites that talk about Windows and what is going on with it. Its seems Paul is trying to drive up blog posts or something with his daily flame baiting. I am done here, I get Windows IT Pro and listen Windows Weekly with Leo where you have to actually talk about MS related info. Best of luck Paul. Peace out!
machias
on Aug 8, 2008
I agree that there is a lot of Apple talk here lately but on the other hand all of the Apple news presented by Paul is related to the Windows platform. As an owner of multiple Macs I will say without hesitation that Apple is starting to get on my nerves. Aside from the issues with MobileMe and the off-kilter support for Windows, we also have this whole things going on with Safari. One of the things that really gets on my nerves is the fact that Apple software on the Windows platform doesn't look like it belongs on Windows. Better yet, it's not even standard between Apple programs! Microsoft makes their software blend reasonably well into the OS X UI, why can't Apple do the same? As far as using Safari on Windows, well, that's just foolish.
tayme
on Aug 8, 2008
@Paul - You see...I sent you this message a week ago, now others are starting to agree. Your experiment may just blow up in your face. Delmont - great posts!!! --tayme
clindhartsen
on Aug 8, 2008
That seems like the perfect phrase to describe this whole issue, perfect! Also, machias, if Apple would actually make their software work with the UI already existing in Windows, using the many tools of the trade which make so many other programs run so well, it would go against the strategy of "give them a half-way decent tool so when they see it on the Mac, they are amazed how much better it is"
johnpapola
on Aug 8, 2008
"But I would hope it's not about seeing everything through a partisan lens" Take this advice, and the pleas from your readers to heart. You can keep relitigating this whole "checkbox gate" if you want to hack it up, Paul. So be it. But taking a competitor with a clear self interest as gospel when criticizing Apple is pretty blatantly partisan and unbalanced. And I love how you gravitate to "Apple undermines the internet". How this can be seen as reasonable when they are the only major player NOT pushing a proprietary runtime environment is beyond all reason and acountability. Microsoft: IE quirks and Silverlight. (100% proprietary) Adobe: Flash and AIR. (100% proprietary) Apple: interoperable AJAX via sproutcore. (0% proprietary) Give me a break. This blog has jumped the shark. PS: thebestofapplebashingsupersite.com/ is available as a new url, buddy.
Ocean
on Aug 8, 2008
How is the 360 doing vs the Wii?
gorath
on Aug 8, 2008
@ notawindowsuser What's the bloody headline of the page Paul refers to? Are you still so sure it was him that coined the phrase? I mean, sure all this apple news is getting tiring, but use your common sense, and realise that he didn't write the headline for the article. Your grievance is aimed in the wrong direction. So yeah, i still think you're retarded.
johnpapola
on Aug 8, 2008
In other Apple news... Tom's Hardware has debunked the "Macs are more expensive" NPD report. Higher ASP, for sure. But not more expensive when comparably equipped. Last time I checked tom's hardware is not an "iCabal" hotbed. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/apple-mac-leopard-windows-vista,1985...
tayme
on Aug 8, 2008
@Ocean - In my house, we have both...The 360 gets way more play time by all of the teenagers that hang out here. That will probably change once the daughter heads off to college...in fact, she will probably take the 360 with her. The Wii gets *some* play time by my wife and I...We like Wii Sports and Wii Fit (I NEED IT!!!). So, to answer your question, in my house...the 360 is the winner by a long shot. It would be interesting to see the actual monthly playtime statistics...but that would have to be done by survey, and could not be verified. Maybe online time...not counting the Wii "Always On" feature so that it can download the latest headlines and weather. --tayme
tayme
on Aug 8, 2008
@notawindowsuser - Read the last sentence in second paragraph of the linked article... --tayme
shark47
on Aug 8, 2008
""In other Apple news..." Not again. Please stop!
shark47
on Aug 8, 2008
"because I can't find that quote in the article Paul points too or the original blog, I found this in the original blog "It undermines the trust relationship great companies have with their customers" or this "It’s wrong because it undermines the trust that we’re all trying to build with users", but no "Apple undermines the Internet", sorry I just must be a retard, or maybe it's not me that's a retard?" Read the heading, man.
weedmonk
on Aug 8, 2008
"I always uninstall the Apple Software Updater on my computers, but like a virus it keeps coming back. I also uninstall the MobileMe control panel applet since I do not expect to ever subscribe to MobileMess." If you guys checkout the AVG support forums. One of the Top 5 requests is for them to include a tool to wipe crApple updater or treat it as vector so that it never installs.
chuckb84
on Aug 8, 2008
Follow the link and see "March 25, 2008" which was when that quote hit the net. Slow news day? Nothing recent for the mandatory Apple bashing blog post? I agree with all the others, there is precious little "win" in the "supersite" these days. If you want to indulge in this nonsense, it might be smarter to go back to the Nexus. That was a dedicated "all the bad things I can find to post about Apple site" and it is certainly less annoying to the Windows people who'd actually like to see Windows discussed!
Dipsh t Admin
on Aug 8, 2008
Ocean, stop trolling! That has nothing to do with this article, and it's something that we all know the answer to. Anyway, the heading was a reference to what the CEO of Mozilla has said. Obviously the Mozilla CEO has a vested interest in playing up Firefox, and they have also said some choice words about Opera as well. Inserting some words to make this clearer: "It undermines the trust relationship great companies, , have with their customers" or this "It’s wrong because it undermines the trust that we’re all trying to build with users", but no "Apple undermines the Internet". According to the Mozilla CEO, they do feel that Apple undermines the Internet. Paul has not said whether he agrees with that particular statement 100%, but has some reservations about how Safari is distributed and the lack of a phishing filter. And Delmont, I agree. A certain amount of Apple news is fine, especially as it relates to Pauls usage of said products, but it is getting boring, even though I'm in general agreement.
johnbaxter
on Aug 8, 2008
1. There is no need to read every blog post (just as there is no need to read every story in a magazine of short and medium stories). The hit counts will tell Paul what to concentrate on. 2. My first Apple machine was purchased in October 1997, and I've been there since (with a Z80 board for the Apple ][ and a couple of Windows laptops along the way, plus toying with Windows on the Mac. I presently have a (deliberately cheap) Vaio running Vista as a sandbox, and have XP (the upgrade to vista is in hand, but I unfortunately need XP for now) on my (current model) iMac. So yes, I'm mostly Apple. 3. Apple was absolutely, totally wrong to try to sneak Safari onto Windows machines via a pre-checked box in an offering of a security update. They are wrong (but not quite so completely) to continue with the checkbox unchecked. Security is security. Fortunately, I had removed iTunes, Safari (I put it onto the Vista laptop to kick tires--the tires were flat), and the Apple updater before this insanity. 4. Apple was wrong to delay patching BIND just so the update could fit neatly with others. Even had the update been ready in total, the BIND should have gone out on the 8th with everyone else, not mixed up with other stuff, so system administrators could get it installed without having to vette all the other stuff. (The BIND patch doesn't much matter to non-Server Mac users.) 5. Apple is not alone in this. Microsoft prechecks all parts of Live which are in the installer, although some large portion of users want only Live Mail and a couple of other parts. (Aside: that's one of the nicest installers I've run into anywhere.) At our user group we remind folks regularly to look at the checkboxes and uncheck what they don't want, pointing out they can always get things later--we are trying to get folks off Outlook Express. Every vendor who does deals with Google or Yahoo! to do installers with prechecked toolbar installs is wrong--many of us do not want the [redacted] toolbars. 6. Fortunately, at 69 I'm unlikely to be around when Apple disappears from the scene due to hubris. Even if that happens before I'm gone, Windows has actually become useable (it's state in the mid 1990s notwithstanding); so has Linux. So I won't be left machineless. Meanwhile, I fully intend to continue reading here.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Aug 8, 2008
Snake "[I] listen Windows Weekly with Leo where you have to actually talk about MS related info." Thanks for the laugh! That was great. For those who don't listen to the TWiT family of podcasts, Windows Weekly consists almost entirely of discussions of Apple products between Leo Laporte (a staunch Apple fan) and Paul. Those generally consist of Leo reporting on the latest Apple product and asking Paul either "So, why is Microsoft screwing up?" or "How do our listeners get this to work with Windows?" When a non-Apple story manages to sneak in, it's more likely a story out of ValleyWag about some Silicon Valley start-up or about Google than about Windows.
johnpapola
on Aug 8, 2008
@johnbaxter great post.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Aug 8, 2008
johnbaxter I found it amusing that you've gone from a Z80 board for an Apple ][ to running Windows on an iMac. So, in both cases you ended up finding ways to avoid Apple's software on their hardware. The more things change... For those not old enough to remember, Z-80 cards for the Apple ][ were designed so you could run the CP/M operatinng system and CP/M apps on your Apple. The most popular one was the Microsoft SoftCard which was Microsoft's first foray into hardware and let Apple users run Microsoft's BASIC which was included. The SoftCard was designed by Tim Patterson (who later wrote MS-DOS), Bill Gates (who was still coding) and Don Burdis.
theCheez
on Aug 8, 2008
Why is it that everyone is missing the fact that the point of the article is Apple pushing Safari on, omg, WINDOWS USERS! Just not getting how thats not related to win in the supersite...
mikegalos@msn.com
on Aug 8, 2008
theCheez, I'd say there are 4 reasons for the objection: 1) Of the 5 stories in the Recent Posts list for this blog, 4 of the 5 relate to Apple and the 5th is a trival press release that a Microsoft marketing site got updated. 2) This story, while it would have been an interesting comment, is about comments made in March to a press statement also in March. 3) With Paul on vacation in Ireland, those top 5 stories represent four days of posts so it's been a LONG time since there's been a serious Windows article on here. 4) The stories that aren't about Apple don't get noticed by the Apple Advocates so even 4 of 5 seems like 100%. Personally, I'd say this was relevant in March but too old to be worth a story on this blog.
feralboy
on Aug 8, 2008
I was going to install Safari to give it a try, but when they tried to force it on me, I changed my mind. My bigger concern is iTunes. I don't need it or want it on my machine as I'm a subscription music fan. So my gripe? EVERY time Apple sends a QuickTime update, they include iTunes AND YOU CAN'T DESELECT IT. So I don't do the update...a week later, they try again...and I don't accept it. Finally, maybe two to three weeks later, they offer it again but now I have the option of deselecting iTunes. This is deplorable behaviour and if so many sites didn't use QuickTime, I'd uninstall it...hell, I may anyway.
Ocean
on Aug 8, 2008
>>Things aren't getting better for Microsoft's oft-maligned Vista OS - released nearly one year and half ago. Last month, just days after Microsoft's PR machine began bragging nearly 180 million licenses of Vista have been sold, the tech site APC diminished those bragging rights reporting Hewlett-Packard (number one in PC sales worldwide) is still "overwhelmingly" shipping system pre-loaded with XP over Vista. << http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/007423.html
Delmont
on Aug 8, 2008
And one more topic for us Windows users: Why can't I run iChat on Vista? :-)
gorath
on Aug 8, 2008
@feralboy there is an app called "Quicktime Alternative", which lets you view quicktime videos, and web stuff, without actually installing quicktime. Maybe you should google it (I have no idea as to the legality of it however)
Dipsh t Admin
on Aug 8, 2008
gorath is right. While there are sites that use QT, I do not have it installed on any of my computers, and I like to avoid it as much as possible. QT Lite is the new name for the QuickTime Alternative, just make sure it is downloaded off a reputable site. And I know I'm feeding the troll here, but seriously Ocean, enough with the trolling. That has nothing to do with this article. I'm sure you can find someplace else to spew.
Ocean
on Aug 8, 2008
>>So Microsoft is fighting back. A preliminary salvo, fired last month, was the so-called “Mojave Experiment”—a focus group in San Francisco of 140 volunteers who had not actually tried Vista but professed that they had heard awful things about it. They were then treated to ten-minute demos by a trained expert of a “new” operating system, allegedly called Mojave. They liked what they saw, and when told that this product was in fact Vista, they gasped in shock and delight. The climactic moments, naturally, are available for viewing at www.mojaveexperiment.com. You could be forgiven for wondering whether Apple had commissioned the advertisement. It was Microsoft at its worst. The “experiment” addressed none of the problems with Vista—the trouble starts when ordinary consumers, not experts, try to use it with their existing hardware—and it felt as authentic as “reality” television. << http://www.economist.com/research/articlesBySubject/displayStory.cfm?sto...
xtreem0
on Aug 8, 2008
Hmm i think because nothing new (technology wise) has come out from the microsoft side. He has resorted to complaining about other things while he waites. (Just a guess?)
johnpapola
on Aug 8, 2008
@Mike, For the record, Windows Weekly does not talk about Apple just because Leo is in it. Paul is the host and leads the agenda. To say that he has no control is to say that he is weak. It's Paul's show and it's his responsibility. Plus, considering the amount of Apple content on this blog... I think it's pretty clear that Paul needs no help to focus on Apple. The only difference between Windows Weekly and this blog is that of tone. Paul sounds like a reasonable, critical-but-fair guy on WW. He sounds like flame-baiting partisan on this blog.
Master3
on Aug 8, 2008
@Ocean. Seriously you are really a first class asshole and the very embodiment of why so many people on the internet have grown to despise Apple users. You really think that ANYONE here gives a damn about your useless spam comments that really serve no purpose than to show how insecure Apple wingnuts like yourself are? What's really pathetic is that most of the Apple users that hang around here dont even have the guts to tell you to stuff it.
Master3
on Aug 8, 2008
"The only difference between Windows Weekly and this blog is that of tone. Paul sounds like a reasonable, critical-but-fair guy on WW. He sounds like flame-baiting partisan on this blog." He's critical of Microsoft on the program = "reasonable, critical-but-fair guy" He's criticle of Apple on the blog = "flame-baiting partisan"
tayme
on Aug 8, 2008
Ocean - I know that I responded to your first post today about Wii vs X-Box...I guess that was my poor attempt to shut you down early. I would say that with today's idiodic troll posting that you are doing, you have officially become the new bonch...and, if you don't know who or what bonch is, he was a troll, much like you a couple of years back over in WinInfo...Or, you could look it up in Urban Dictionary....Because, I think that definition might be the best match in this case. I know, I know...that was childish of me...Oh well, its Friday!!! --tayme
mikegalos@msn.com
on Aug 8, 2008
John It's Paul's show but it's Leo's network. And if you think Windows Weekly's coverage of Apple is that of a "reasonable, critical-but-fair guy" considering that you are a self-professed Apple fanatic who worships Steve Jobs, I'd say that you find it that way makes my point quite well.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Aug 8, 2008
xtreem0 Let's see, this week: Microsoft released SQL Server 2008 The Black Hat conference took place with Microsoft announcing even more security fix disclosure channels The Olympics began being shown via Silverlight Beta 2 Or, from Paul's own WinInfo Short Takes IDC reports that Microsoft now has 13% of the virtualization market Although that does close with the following: "To put Microsoft's percentage in perspective, think about how successful everyone tells you the Mac is, and then remember that the 13 percent figure is more than four times higher than the Mac's market share in the PC market and twice as high as the Mac's market share in its most successful market by far, the United States. Yeah, I did just make that comparison. Deal with it. " Maybe he didn't put that story here because he knew this audience couldn't "deal with it"
Master3
on Aug 8, 2008
@mikegalos He likely did it because he understands frankly how unstable some these guys are, and knew they would pitch a fit when he posted it. They will then type furious retorts filled with scorn, all the while pushing up the page view count of a blog they keep saying they cant stand.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Aug 8, 2008
@Master3 Yeah, but you'd think he'd want to pay for the Ireland trip or maybe Christmas in France.
Ocean
on Aug 8, 2008
I don't own or use an Apple, other than my iPod. >>In light of the new Windows flaws announced yesterday, I think it's time to reiterate a point I made a long time ago: It's time for Microsoft to dump Windows. In fact, ten years ago would have been a good time to start. At the risk of berating the obvious, it's clear that security will continue to be a major problem for Microsoft. The reason is their tether to legacy code, and their patchwork attempts to shore up their OS core. It's time to let it go.<< Interesting: http://weblog.infoworld.com/venezia/archives/018104.html
DRWAM
on Aug 8, 2008
I used to watch The Screen Savers and other stuff on a channel that became G4 I believe. Where can I catch Windows Weekly?
Ocean
on Aug 8, 2008
Google (not Live Search) is your friend: http://www.google.com/search?q=Windows+Weekly
mikegalos@msn.com
on Aug 8, 2008
Well, Live Search gave me www.twit.tv/ww as the website for Windows Weekly (along with a handy listing of other Twit TV podcasts) as the top entry. Guess it's too hard for Ocean to use.
Lindy
on Aug 8, 2008
Ohhhhhhh dam this hurts.... http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/news/article/0,289142,sid14_gci1324... while you are busy dumping Safari save some time and just format your Vista PC. Beeeeeeeeeeeaaatch Slap that rang round the world. "By taking advantage of the way that browsers, specifically Internet Explorer, handle active scripting and .NET objects, the pair have been able to load essentially whatever content they want into a location of their choice on a user's machine." Dam that is gut busting funny. Enough to make Microsoft Mikey have a hissy fit. Flame on MS fangirls!!! Asta LaVISTA:)
Lindy
on Aug 8, 2008
"Researchers who have read the paper that Dowd and Sotirov wrote on the techniques say their work is a major breakthrough and there is little that Microsoft can do to address the problems. The attacks themselves are not based on any new vulnerabilities in IE or Vista, but instead take advantage of Vista's fundamental architecture and the ways in which Microsoft chose to protect it." Burn it to the ground and start over.

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