Report: Macs really are more expensive than PCs

Mac fanboys (and I am one of them) like to respond to price criticisms by updating good-enough-for-me PC configuration to match Mac's nearly-fully-loaded configuration. For instance, adding stuff most PC users don't care for, such as web cam, Vista Ultimate Edition, and Bluetooth, just to bring PC price closer to that of comparable Mac.

Do you really get that much better hardware for $1000? A couple months ago I bought a Lenovo IdeaPad Y510 with a 1.6 ghz Core Duo, 3 gigs of ram, 250 gig hdd, DVD DL Burner, and Vista Home Premium for $530 (and integrated web cam with face recognition, nutmac). Excellent computer. In fact it's the best computer that I have ever owned and the cheapest computer that I have ever bought. Highly recommend it. I'm sure it would have no problem whatsoever running OSX (if that were possible). There has been several times when I have at the same time ran Windows Media Encoder (converting videos), VirtualBox running Ubuntu, IE7, Zune, and Windows Live Mail without even the hint of a hiccup. For me personally (and I do much more taxing things with my computer than the average Joe), my $530 computer is much more than I need for anything. That's why most people can't justify paying $1500 for a Mac.

I just bought this for my Niece over the weekend. Mind you its the premium line for Dell and the Inspirons were cheaper. Its not even close really with all the deals Dell HP and the rest run weekly. Dell XPS M1330, Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T5550, 1.83GHz, 13.3" WXGA, 4GB RAM, 320GB, CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW Drive), 802.11 a/b/g/n, Bluetooth, 2.0 Megapixel Integrated Webcam, Biometric Fingerprint Reader, McAfee SecurityCenter 15-months, Windows Vista™ Home Premium, 1Yr In-Home Service, 3GB Online Backup for 1Year » for $1003.20 at Dell.com

@matt.brown, I don't think the hardware between a Mac and a PC is really all that different. After all, external design aside, the innards of a Mac are very similar to that of a PC, Intel processors and all. I think the price difference is about software more that anything else. With all of the Macs I've purchased, even the older ones dating back to the late 90's, it came with the software needed to do most of the day to day stuff I needed right out of the box. With a PC, I'm not sure that's the case, but I base my opinion mainly on the one PC I occasionally use at work, so I could be wrong. Right out of the box the PC didn't really have anything I could use to catalog my images, music or sound effects, let alone do so in as unified as manner as Apple's iLife apps (I'm an illustrator and an animator by the way). I would have had to purchase competitive apps separately, but since I've got two Macs as my main workstations, there wasn't a need for it. Of course, neither machine comes with the higher end tools I need like Photoshop or Cinema 4D, so I guess they're kinda equal in that respect. That PC was definitely cheaper, but not nearly as useful. The only reason we bought it was for a piece of software from UPS that we use to take orders for some of our artwork. Of course, this may have all changed with Vista. Maybe it does come with some really good apps built in for that sort of thing, but our company won't let us use it until they feel confident enough about it. So anyway, that's my two cents. Peace.

I think PC's are indeed cheaper.....all out!! Here's why -- If I buy a $1200 Dell desktop and a $1200 iMac, when I want to upgrade some of the guts of the PC, I don't have to go spend another $1200 on an upgraded iMac if all I wanted was a new $500 graphics card....and that shiny new soundcard...or whatever. Over the longrun, PC's are waaaay cheaper. I still like my MBP, but my wallet says over time my PC is cheaper.

Sooo... anyone into computers enough to buy a quality machine, 2/3rds of the time get a mac? Is that what the data implies? Soo... anyone that isn't buying a junky computer that will be obsolete in 2 years, 2/3rds of the time get a mac? Is that what the data implies? Paul, as a self proclaimed 'computer guy', when's the last time you bought a laptop or desktop with a screen for less than $1000? Usually people who use computers as serious tools spend between $1000 and $2000 on their machines so that they will last a while and do the work well. Apple is changing the way people think about comptuers... they're no longer junker commodity items with identical software, gray boxes, and malware vulnerabilities... now they're a way to talk to relatives hundreds of miles away (easily and quickly), music/photo/video organizing and sharing tools, which are fun to use and try new things on. In addition to hardware that looks beautiful enough to put in the living room. You can't claim that with any $500 PC, that's for sure. I'm glad to see people actually caring about their computers, and excited about using them for once... not geeks mind you, but real people. Teachers, carpenters, retired grandmas, etc. It's amazing to see how excited they are about computing for the first time ever and not just buying the cheapest piece of trash they can to get on the internet and collect viruses for the next 4 months until their computer grinds to a hault.

Weedmonk: "Dell XPS M1330, Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T5550, 1.83GHz, 13.3" WXGA, 4GB RAM, 320GB, CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW Drive), 802.11 a/b/g/n, Bluetooth, 2.0 Megapixel Integrated Webcam, Biometric Fingerprint Reader, McAfee SecurityCenter 15-months, Windows Vista™ Home Premium, 1Yr In-Home Service, 3GB Online Backup for 1Year » for $1003.20 at Dell.com " For the same cost, you can get a macbook, with a 2.1Ghz Core 2 Duo processor. You can add third party RAM for $50 or so, and you've got a far superior (in my opinion) machine with Mac OSX, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, Garageband, etc. Also, it's virus free, doesn't come with any bloatware, and comes with the best customer service and support of all hardware vendors... hands down. (actual americans on the phone helping you)

fivepoint: In case you haven't heard, OS X is less secure than either Windows Vista or XP. With Vista you have Windows Defender. I use my computers worry free and have never had a virus. I've had a number of friends with Macbooks, Macbook Pros and iBook's that have been hacked however. Your comparison to the XPS isn't even close! Vista doesn't need as much processing power as does OS X, so a 2.1 might actually seem slower on a Macbook running OS X than an XPS running Vista at 1.83. Can you get 4GB of ram, 320GB hard drive with all the other stuff he mention AND "in home service"? (i.e. no phone necessary). Also, iLife doesn't quite compare to things like Windows Movie Maker (not that I need it now that I have Premiere, see post above), Live Photo Gallery, Windows DVD Maker (perhaps not as good as iDVD, but a minor app at that) and the plethora of other apps you get for free. You want to compare Safari to IE? iChat to... every messenger available for PC's? I'll give you Garageband and iDVD, but I'm sorry, we gotcha with Photo Gallery, Movie Maker, IE and the entire messenger arena.

@Cfischer83: "In case you haven't heard, OS X is less secure than either Windows Vista or XP. With Vista you have Windows Defender. I use my computers worry free and have never had a virus. I've had a number of friends with Macbooks, Macbook Pros and iBook's that have been hacked however." HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH,..... LOL.... HAHAHAHa... oh, you can't possibly be serious! "Vista doesn't need as much processing power as does OS X" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH,..... LOL.... HAHAHAHa... oh, you can't possibly be serious! "Also, iLife doesn't quite compare to things like Windows Movie Maker" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH,..... LOL.... HAHAHAHa... oh, you can't possibly be serious! I HONESTLY do not know how to respond to your post. It's full of OBVIOUS falicies and lies. These are proven areas where macs and Mac OSX are superior... Windows Movie Maker? Give me a break! Windows more secure than OSX? Give me a break! I honestly can't even explain how someone like you could be alive and kicking, actually following the tech industry, and have the viewpoints that you have. Absolutely amazing!

"Your macbook's highest available processor is still only HALF what my processor on my Dell is." Right... because quad-core means twice as fast at the same ghz, right? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH,..... LOL.... HAHAHAHa... oh, you can't possibly be serious! I'm sure the 3.06Ghz iMac isn't nearly as fast as your quad-core machine. Without a doubt. ;)

@dougxd. What is this, 1996? Gutting your PC to replace components like video cards and soundcards is so utterly obsolete. FIrst of all, as a percentage of the overall market, fewer people upgrade their video cards than buy macs I would bet. Just look at how few people upgrade Windows. Essentially nobody. Most Windows licenses are sold with new PCs. Second... just sell your old computer and buy a new one! What a terrible waste of good hardware to pull out old gear and chuck it in the trash. As a former PC builder, I know for a fact that the only time it really makes sense to do an upgrade more extensive than ram and harddrive is after a full generation of tech has been released. That means new video card, new motherboard with new chipset and prcoessor, probably newer ram. That's a new computer. To ruin your perfectly usable machine just to save the case is ludicrous, anti-environmental and out-dated. Hell, give it to the poor. I had a G5 tower since 2003. Pushed up its ram and drives. May have cost me $3500 overall. Kept it til 2007 and sold it on ebay for $2000. Now, instead of some dead heap of parts, it's still getting used and I put the proceeds to a new 8-core mac pro. Many mac users do this. Just check out ebay. Then there's the whole real issue: people are moving to laptops. Desktop sales overall are in major industry wide decline to the tune of 20% year-over-year (minus Apple a few others who are growing). Laptops aren't upgradeable so this whole argument is irrelevant.

@fischer You can post all of the links you want about 'potential vulnerabilities' because all I care about are real world attacks. FACT: There are THOUSANDS and MILLIONS of XP owners (Microsoft's most used OS) who have suffered through viruses/trojans/etc... and how many for Macs? ZERO!!!! Potential vulnerabilities are different than exploited ones... Troll. Your attempt to state that Microsoft security is superior to Mac's is laughable. Now, because you are entertaining me, I would LOVE to hear your reasoning why MovieMaker is better than iMovie... Hahhahaha!

First of all, Troll? Really? Do you know what that even is? At least I'm giving logical, fact-based information in a respectful way. You're making outrageous claims in all CAPS with nonsense replies, all while trying to belittle me. Who's the troll? Yes, thousands and even millions of people who own XP have viruses, I'm not disputing that. Even some Vista users out there (all 150,000,000 of them) have viruses, but to suggest that not one Mac has a virus? That's just plain ignorance. In case you haven't seen, there's a new virus everyday for the Mac (although most news sources will always start by saying it's the "first" but that's just poor journalism). Take, for example, this Trojan http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=629 You are also under the impression that "security" means viruses, viruses and only viruses. You're forgetting that most security issues involve getting past your password (e.g. phishing), loop holes in common protocols that are the same across all platforms, and encryption. Suppose you leave your "superior" macbook out and someone steals it? Guess what, they can recover passwords to things like your bank account, credit cards or anything thanks to this security glitch: http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9881870-7.html?tag=blog.1 ... now suppose that I leave my Vista Ultimate laptop sitting out and it gets stolen.... what's that? The thief can't extract my password from the ram? Oh that's ok, he'll just take out the hard drive and find it... oh wait, bitlocker? The entire hard drive is encrypted.... hmm... Mr. Thief is going to have to go look for another Macbook to steal. Sorry to tell you this but Mac's can get viruses, do get viruses and viruses are not the biggest problem on the computer anymore anyway. After all, with one sweep of my computer my anti-virus software kills anything that may be there, so what's the difference? Viruses can be undone, stolen info and passwords cannot. Windows Movie Maker... well, a time line is sure nice for one.... hmm... faster importing, better HD support, and MS actually makes each version BETTER rather than worse.

What details do you want? I thought I gave plenty. Dell: 2.4ghz Quad Core, 3GB Ram Mac: Two 2.66Ghz Core 2 Duos, 6GB Ram (OS X Tiger). I am using virtually the same apps on both. Mac: Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Firefox, Safari, Opera, Word, Excel, iTunes, iPhoto, YummyFTP, Fireworks, Flash and Adium as my Messenger. Dell: Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Fireworks, IE7, Safari, Opera, Word, Excel, iTunes, SmartFTP, Fireworks, Flash, Zune, Premiere, Live Photo Gallery and Trillian as my messenger. At any point, many of these apps will be absent from my process list so I know it is not any one app slowing my Mac down. Even if it was, my Mac's not slow just not as fast as my Dell.

Before the Mac fanboys get too carried away with the 66% figure, which I'm sure you will, that figure is the retail share of computers sold in brick-and-mortar stores. Of course the headline wouldn't have the same oomph if that was mentioned in the mast head, so you get a statement that needs to be clarified later. Now I don't don't doubt that Apple has grown tremendously, but let's look at this without fruity colored glasses. Up until very recently, Dell was sold almost exclusively through Dell.com, and HP does plenty of their business online too. Take in to account that the general brick-and-mortar general computer store is somewhat dying, with the death of CompUSA. The Wal-Mart's of the world certainly don't sell expensive computers, nor do they really sell expensive anything for that matter. So having Apple with it's shiny stores selling high-end goods and getting a big piece of the pie is not surprising. However, I'd like to see the overall consumer market, not just brick-and-mortar. "Troll. Your attempt to state that Microsoft security is superior to Mac's is laughable." You looking in the mirror or trying to state a fact? It is quite laughable that you would treat security in such a black and white manner, when you really have no data to back up your claims, except what you feel is true. The ZERO figure that point out is a little hard to quantify, since your mothership has sold you a computer that they state is incapable of getting malware, which means that the general populace of Mac users doesn't have any anti-malware software. A dangerous spot to be in for sure. "If Apple has 66% of the higher-end computer retail market, and is growing 45%+ year-over-year, while the Windows desktop market is DOWN 25%" John, where are you getting these figures? The figures that I can find don't really support this and see way overly optimistic and hyperbolic. From IDC's figures which Paul had reported on last month: http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS21190708 These were the figures that showed 25% growth for Apple, and 15% growth for Dell for first quarter 2008, just for comparison. Actual unit growth for Apple was 191 thousand, and was 667 thousand for Dell. And as I mentioned in that same article, the percentage growth for Apple was certainly great, but the actual unit growth does not meet up, and is certainly less. This regularly updated article also provides some insight: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_desktop_operating_systems All of these figures don't align with the Fortune article, which makes believe that the retail brick-and-mortar sales are relatively a drop in the bucket of the greater computer market.

JohnPapola- Usually you make sense (while being at the opposite end of spectrum from me in your opinions, being a macboy and all - but that's all fine, who expects you guys to approach computing with reason anyway... ;) but this particular argument of yours is just plain idiotic: "What's funny, is that mac bashers have alway called out the platform for not having games. Yet gaming machines are ALWAY the highest-end thing on the market. And yet, here we are, with Apple utterly dominating the high end. Funny" That is almost like a lot of the politics nowadays - just because now there is Al Qaeda in Iraq people say that we went there to fight terrorism. NOBODY buys Macs to game; and guess what - you couldn't really game on a Mac. At best, your argument shows that Mac crowd is not that bright, because, after all, they use it for consumer / productivity apps, which much cheaper PCs can accomplish just as well (I know you will scream No here, but whatever). The gamers Will spend on the highend, but the gamers are a niche and never dominated the market in the first place.

My friends all had XP SP2 and kids, but I have had no crashes with my Macs and lots of problems with XP [plug and don't play]. I am using Vista without problems, but only a little, but I do like it. But you know what Cfisher83? If I cannot fix XP after another SP3 install, I am just going to try to install Vista on it and hope that it works. That's a good idea, so thanks, because I have better things to do than play with this PC. I guess that I better read the minimum requirements. Thanks for the idea. BTW, if you're talkin' an $800 difference, then hell yeah I would buy the PC as an average user, maybe even $500, because they really do the same thing for an average user [Leopard and Vista]. Wish me luck. If you think that you see a shooting star tonight, bet that's it's my PC flying out the window [I'm an ex-shot putter too]

@Paul how you read into that article that Mac's are more expensive???? Then again you would not be you with out bashing Apple. @cfischer Windows does not ship with anything compared to iLife 08. Movie maker is a joke. I used if for years when I had XP because I did not want to spend money on something better like Sony Vegas or whatever. When I got my first Vista notebook last year I bought a new video camera and retired my digital 8mm after many years. Anyhow I got a Sony camera with a 40gig drive and low and behold Vista/Movie Maker 6 (what happened to 3, 4, & 5?) in all of its new shiny gui, love fest could not read the HD on the camera. Plugged it into my Macbook and Leopard/iMovie started dumping the video into iMovie.....cuz it just works. Oh and you just got to love that coster or um DVD maker that ships with "some" versions of Vista, its almost as bad as the Zune 1.0 software, but better than WHS:) You got PC lovers here with their stories of getting Dell super cheap with a coupon code they got of some site, combined with a xmas or back to school sell/corporate discount/mothers day/take you kid to school day sale, comparing them to the highest price Apple they can find. New Flash you can buy Mac's on sale....go to Amazon during a holiday, Macbooks are usually the #1 seller during the holidays, or get a student discount from someone you know. Here is a comparison (not winsupersite comparison) from 1 year ago.... http://www.systemshootouts.org/shootouts/laptop/2007/0515_lt1100.html Every Dell I see that is 3 or more years old always looks like a used Frisbee.....not so for Macs.

@Lindy Vista Movie Maker is head & shoulders above XP movie maker. I don't know why you couldn't import your video but I'm betting it was probably a One-D-Ten-T problem ;) Who said anything about coupons, specials or any of that? Did you not read anything I posted? Did you not see the link that takes you directly to Dell's website where you can get 2.4ghz Quad Core, 3GB Ram, 500GB HD for $499? Apparently not. Once again you totally missed the point. Of course you can always FIND PC's that are as expensive as Mac's... why would anyone go searching for a MORE expensive PC? The point is that you CAN find PC's that blow equivalent Mac's out of the water at price. Can you show me a quad core Mac under a grand? Under two grand? Can't find any at Apple.com. Can't find any at Amazon. Can't find any on Ebay. Can't find any on Craigslist.

There are so many problems with the above post I don't know how to cover them all... and since it's late and I've spent all day debunking Apple Crap (Crapple) I'll make it short. Mac Pro is NOT a serious work group server. Tried using it as a server at work and was the biggest pain in the butt! It was the second Mac Pro I had to reinstall the OS on. I had an easier time using a 512mb ram, Pentium 4 PC running Windows 2000 as a server than I did the MP. The Mac Pro is certainly a high end workstation (although not the highest), the point I keep trying to prove OVER AND OVER is that the two desktops do overlap in configurations, and the Dell comes out on top by a long shot, and there are NO other Mac's out there that can compare to this Dell. Who uses desktops? Um... half the world, that's who O_o

First of all, this whole thread is so typical. Are macs generally more expensive than PCs on average? Of course! Are they fairly competitive (though still marginally more expensive) than comparably equipped PCs... clearly. Should this be the sole basis for your purchasing decision? Only if you're an ignorant cheapskate. As for midrange towers vs. the Mac pro... not reasonable. The Mac Pro is a workstation. It's got Dual quad core Xeons and is clearly targeted at professionals. Comparing it to anything other than a Dell precision workstation, or HP workstation or Boxx machine is dishonest and/or ignorant. Apple doesn't make a standard mini-tower. It's a hole in their lineup. But given their growth rate in desktops and the decline of desktop sales overall, there's clearly little reason for them to appeal to this niche. Apple's growing a very healthy rate and it's not because there's a rapidly growing population of morons on the earth. It's because the Mac has genuine value over Windows PCs for many users. It's not the end-all-be-all for everyone, but only arrogant dorks will try to marginalize the Mac's value just because they can spec out a system that's a few hundred bucks cheaper. That's just dork nonsense. Regarding security, any smart Mac users should be very careful about touting security as a key feature. Vista has improved things on Windows to the point where there is pretty much parity. OSX may at this point be technically less secure since Apple doesn't have the resources Microsoft has to pour over their code line by line. In practice, the Mac is a very hack/virus free experience... for now. So let's just drop it until something meaningful changes (and no, pwn2own is not meaningful). Fivepoint, with all due respect, the crazy text laughing isn't helping you or the mac pov out. Cfischer, I don't know about Vista's media tools, but Paul has always reviewed iLife as being DRAMATICALLY superior to anything on the Windows platform. I'll take Paul's word since he is mr. winsupersite and his reviews tend to be pretty fair. Given that, I'm going to guess that your slam against iLife has to do with standard PC-user spec sheet reading and not actual use of the applications. Dpsht, "John, where are you getting these figures?  The figures that I can find don't really support this and see way overly optimistic and hyperbolic." I'm pulling them directly from the article Paul is linking to here (which I emailed him yesterday morning). IDC's numbers are wrong. Plain and simple. Apple's Q108 numbers directly from them show 44% y-o-y growth in units. That's the real number for Apple's computer growth and it's pretty massive in the context of the overall PC market (roughly three times faster). ibarsky, I'm glad you think I'm usually reasonable, but that makes your direct insults all the weirder. I'm not claiming people buy macs for games. Obviously they don't. What I'm saying is simple. PC users bash the mac for being expensive, then (typically) they turn around point to games as a major missing element for the platform. There's clear and obvious hypocrisy in those arguments because gaming PCs are very expensive, with graphics cards that exceed the average selling price of PC desktops. "John, where are you getting these figures?  The figures that I can find don't really support this and see way overly optimistic and hyperbolic." Agreed. My point was simply about the hypocritical anti-mac argument that's always dominated the web. Of course, gaming belongs on consoles now with a shrinking niche of kids PC gaming, so it matters less than ever. As for your bizarre political analogy... stick to tech comments, political commentary is clearly not your strong suit.

The thing that Cfischer83 seems to not grasp is this: Anecdotal "evidence" is not data.... Let that sink in and repeat until it becomes clear. They are your personal experiences, not some cognitive dissonance that Mac users experience, because I'm willing to bet that the vast majorities experience is not your experience. The price subterfuge is always and interesting one. The claims of a Mac always underperforming against a "comparable" Dell (whatever the hell that is) are exercising in partisan "I want my side to win, so I change the parameters to my team wins". Really? Are you thinking we wouldn't notice this? No different from Paul in his anti-Apple rants to be quite honest. He is qualified to speak about Microsoft; wholly unqualified to speak about anything Apple, until some proper journalistic neutrality is attained. Sad thing is that Paul is well thought out most of the time, but his bias, his thinly veiled vitriol, his clumsy "I actually like Apple" disguise (Sorry Paul, not buying that bridge) against anything Aple makes his posts worth the electrons this post is residing on, in other words no much. So Cfischer83 continue at the feet of your Jedi Master, so far I'm still waiting for a point from you that is anything more the fanboyism (read: anyone who throws out the label of "Crapple" ) is a Fanyboy.

"Apple has always milked the moron tax on its users and the iTards are oblivious." "it's late and I've spent all day debunking Apple Crap (Crapple)" "your argument shows that Mac crowd is not that bright" So much for rational discourse.

"IDC's numbers are wrong. Plain and simple. Apple's Q108 numbers directly from them show 44% y-o-y growth in units" OK, even if we take this 44% figure at face value, it still doesn't compute if you will. Unit growth would still be lower than what Dell added during the same period making the figures your originally pointed out difficult to believe.

Ok, I'm going to prove all the Mac fanboy's wrong here for probably the umpteenth time: This is what Apple sells: MacBook Pro 15" 2.5GHz base w/ the following: 2.5GHz Core 2 Duo processor (I'm making a guess here, but I would imagine these are Penryn T9300's - somebody prove me wrong) 4GB DDR2-667 Dual-Channel RAM 200GB SATA 7200RPM Hard Drive 15" Glossy 1440x900 LCD (no charge extra for glossy - whatever) USB modem (mine includes a modem, so I'm trying to be fair here) 3 Year AppleCare warranty rest of the stuff is stock (DVDRW, webcam, GF 8600GT 512MB, BT, 802.11n, 2xUSB, etc.) On the Apple Canada webstore they sell for a whopping: $3307!! (LOL!) Ok, and this is a very similar system that I sell: Intel Core 2 Duo T9300 2.5GHz procssor 4GB DDR2-667 Dual-Channel RAM 200GB SATA 7200RPM Hard Drive w/ 1GB Intel Turbomemory Cache DVDRW Dual-Layer Burner GF 8600M GT 512MB 15" 1680x1050 Glossy LCD 2.0Mp webcam Fingerprint reader Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR Firewire ExpressCard 54 4x USB 2.0 ports SVideo-out, VGA-out USB charging capability for peripherals No-latch "mag-seal" screen Card reader Intel 4965AGN Gigabit Ethernet v92 Modem Vista Ultimate x64 SP1 Windows Live OneCare included Notebook bag included 3 Year Warranty + Support $1799.99 (Canadian dollars too) There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that you can justify an extra $1500 expenditure for buying from Apple in that case - that's nearly DOUBLE!!! For anyone with a system like that, they could easily get a legit copy of Adobe Creative Suite for that kind of extra money!