Seven iPhone Disappointments

Jun. 20, 2008 Paul Thurrott | Paul Thurrott's Supersite for Windows

Brian Caulfield from Forbes obviously didn't get the memo from the iCabal that iPhone criticism is not allowed. That said, he hits most, but misses some:

Imperfections [with the iPhone 3G] still lurk, in spite of Chairman Steve Jobs' maniacal attention to detail. Even before its release, there are some niggling issues--some minor, others major--that make the iPhone a mere gadget, just like any other. Just ask those pesky bloggers:

The Cost

Do the math you find out and the iPhone will cost $160 more over two years than the original iPhone because AT&T put together a pricier data plan for the phone to help it subsidize the up-front cost of the handset.

Two things here. First, don't ever quote the "fiends at Gizmodo" if you're looking for credibility. I cut out the quote to spare you the stupidity.

Second, while the cost is actually closer to $40 more over year years not counting SMS, this is a silly complaint. Virtually anyone who didn't buy an iPhone earlier because of the price will be just fine with this sort-of price increase. The much lower upfront cost helps matters greatly.

No Flash

The iPhone still doesn't support Adobe's Flash technology, which means many multimedia-rich sites remain off limits.

Eh. I agree this is too bad, but it's not a deal breaker.

A more important issue: The iPhone 3G's camera still has no flash either. That's a bigger issue, and one that can't be rectified by a software update.

No Replaceable Batteries

There's no easy way to crack open the new iPhone's sleek case to pop in a battery.

I agree this is a weak spot. That said, the iPhone battery is surprisingly durable. Over the past year, the iPhone's reliance on EDGE has been a much, much bigger problem than the battery.

Video Recording

Please. I mean, please.

Let's get a decent still camera in there first. I'd love to just be able to carry this thing around instead of this and a camera.

No Cut-And-Paste

The inability to copy a chunk of text and paste it into another application has baffled geeks since the iPhone's introduction last year.

Sure. Has it baffled you too? Or are you just gauging the reaction of the blogosphere and relaying it to people who are presumably too busy to do their own research? :)

No Multimedia Messaging Service
This might be the most interesting example of what makes the iPhone quirky

So ... This is a weird one.

If someone sends you an MMS message, the iPhone's SMS application will tell you about a Web site you can go to view it, which would be nice if you could a) click on the link and go there, or b) cut and paste the information to do it manually. You can't do either. Doy.

Bonus: No Voice Dialing

[This is] the one feature makes the BlackBerry, with its nubby little plastic keyboard, usable on the road.

That and the Exchange compatibility and keyboard,I'm guessing. Good call though.

But here's the thing. You're missing the number one problem.

AT&T 3G is Barely Available Anywhere in the US!

Oh well.

Discuss this Article 57

BrightrevCarl

on Jun 20, 2008

I mentioned this in a previous comment. But AT&T's 3G network is available in large metro areas. Eighty percent of Americans live in cities. That doesn't mean that 80% of the people have access to the network, but saying it's "Barely available anywhere" is an overstatement. I do agree that AT&T's network isn't very good and things would have been much, much better had Verizon been a little smarter when approached by Apple. The biggest thing he missed was that you apparently won't going to be able to use the iPhone as a Bluetooth modem. This is an absolute no-brainer and would *really* address one of the biggest problems with the Macbook Air - that it has one USB port and no built in mobile broadband. The only reason I can think that this won't be allowed is that AT&T's network can't take the extra bandwidth. I'd be surprised if you don't see 3G outages on AT&T by mid-August. Really bad decision to leave this feature out.

DRWAM

on Jun 20, 2008

Paul mentioned the lack of moden use before. It would have been nice. If Exchange REALLY works, I will have the calender that I desire via the browser/exchange server. I guess that I could just use Exchange and Officem then use the browser to see the calender, but I sure would like it to sync with the iPhone calender. Also, the mystery of how Office documents support is going to happen is a big one, IMO. Not a deal breaker either, but may come up short.

heran

on Jun 20, 2008

Does iPhone have bluetooth (for file transfer), video calling (basic 3G feature), ability of viewing office documents, and fm radio? And it appears very often you need both hands to operate this device?

cesjr

on Jun 20, 2008

"Forbes obviously didn't get the memo from the iCabal that iPhone criticism is not allowed" Of course, Paul is wrong as usual - Apple fans and (according to Paul) Apple-biased journalists voiced many of these criticisms as well. For example, as David Pogue of the NYT noted: "Brokenhearted Apple watchers wasted no time in bemoaning all the missing features that remain unaddressed: There’s still no user-swappable battery, physical keyboard, copy-and-paste function, memory card slot, video recording, Bluetooth stereo audio or MMS (the ability to send photos to other cellphones)." Also, he points out the 3G coverage issue: "AT&T says it has coverage in 280 metropolitan areas, and will have 350 by year’s end. (I just checked AT&T’s 3G-coverage map Web site to see where and how big these hot spots are. It says only “Maintenance in Progress.”) . . . But unless you’re in an AT&T 3G coverage area, the new iPhone won’t be any faster online than the old one." http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/iphone-20-looking-at-what-migh... Will Paul ever stop making the strawman argument that mac fans won't or don't criticize apple (or allow such criticism where warranted)? No, of course not. He'll keep saying it even though it's demonstrably untrue. Because on these matters, Paul doesn't care about the truth.

gavers

on Jun 20, 2008

You should have left the Gizmodo thing in there, because now I have to go read his article to see exactly what he said. I'v been deriding Gizmodo for a while now, and Gawker in general.

gavers

on Jun 20, 2008

Ok, it was worth clicking through to see that. He quotes Gizmodo and The New York Times in the same sentence. At least we know the level of research he did.

gavers

on Jun 20, 2008

@cesjr: You're misinepretting "iCabal." It is not a term to encompas every single Mac user - or even most of them - but the fanatical few who do actually behave the way Paul says.

cesjr

on Jun 20, 2008

"You're misinepretting "iCabal." It is not a term to encompas every single Mac user - or even most of them - but the fanatical few who do actually behave the way Paul says." If it's a "fanatical few" - then why does Paul focus on them so much? For every 1 mac fan that can't stand any criticism of Apple, there's a 100 more that can and in fact criticize apple all the time. At best, he's painting a completely unbalanced portrait of mac fans. And he knows it. He just doesn't care. But accuracy and truth -- when it comes to apple --- simply don't matter to him.

weedmonk

on Jun 20, 2008

Wow...the new site update is really pleasant on the eyes. Thank you tech's for me Paul. I'd add #11....being tied to iTunes.

gavers

on Jun 20, 2008

@cesjr: because the "iCabal" is extremely vocal. That small minority speak with such a loud voice that they effectively drown out the 99% of "normal" Mac users. That's the whole point he's trying to make. I think if you can't see that, then you may be one of them. And before you start questioning me, just look where my avatar image was taken or go to my profile here then to my website. I won't respond again though, Paul's blog isn't the place for it.

cesjr

on Jun 20, 2008

"That small minority speak with such a loud voice that they effectively drown out the 99% of "normal" Mac users." Really? First of all, most "normal" mac users don't even express an opinion on these things. They just use their mac and never come to any of these websites or blogs like Paul's. Probably 10 percent of mac users at best even read online tech news regularly or participate online in these kinds of debates. And then how many of those people actually never criticize apple - 1% of that 10%? 5% of that 10%? How can so few people actually "drown" out the voices of the much larger number of mac fans -- that actually particpate in these debates? It's not happening. Nobody -- or practically nobody -- participating in these debates online is saying Apple shouldn't ever be criticized It's a classic strawman - you argue against a position that nobody (or almost nobody) is taking.

Waethorn

on Jun 20, 2008

@DOC: If your IT staff are looking at Exchange support on a mobile phone, they should be looking at Windows Mobile phones instead of Blackberry's. Exchange supports Windows Mobile devices out of the box. Blackberry's require Blackberry Enterprise Server for integration and extra security - an extra $3000+ on top of the purchase of Exchange. Many Windows Mobile phones with side keyboards are much easier to type on than the tic-tac sized keyboards that front-facing Blackberry (and similarly-designed Windows Mobile smartphones) use. HTC's mini smartphones like the S720 and 5800 (both are nearly identical but are used on different providers) offer side-slider keyboards and, of course, Windows Mobile, meaning Exchange support is built in (and Exchange supports them without any additional cost). They are also very cheap compared to comparable Blackberry devices, and ESPECIALLY the iPhone. The HTC Touch Pro looks ULTRA-KEWL, with lots of new features and applications (TouchFlo 3D on the Touch Pro/Diamond looks amazing, and they have a new web browser too), but would be overkill for all but the very rich that wouldn't just buy a cheap laptop. I'm not keen on the other Touch models though, as I wouldn't want a smartphone without a keyboard. Call me old-fashioned, but the nice thing I like about the S720 and 5800 are that they both feature a numpad for dialing, without having to open the sliding keyboard. They are much smaller than other PDA's too, being closer in size to a thick standard cellphone.

cesjr

on Jun 20, 2008

"I think if you can't see that, then you may be one of them." What if I've criticized apple? (which I have) - can I still be a member of the iCabal? Because I thought members of the iCabal don't criticize (or stand criticism of) apple. Please explain.

DRWAM

on Jun 20, 2008

Thanks Waethorn. I'll have to ask what they are supporting. My contract with ATT expired so I can go anywhere. I'll get the wife a new phone too, but she just wants a basic phone. What's the deal with some new quad core coming out soon? One of the neurologists was salivating about it. I think he was talking about the Core2's maybe?

DRWAM

on Jun 20, 2008

oops, I forgot that he mentioned it was a 3GHz quad core. What's the deal? PS The ATT map shows 3G all over NJ. The written list is outdated. The search on the map show it's all over the Garden state. However, our high taxes and auto insurance makes me long for using EDGE in PA.

Joshu4

on Jun 20, 2008

Well no iPhone in Canada yet. I can't say anything. :P

Waethorn

on Jun 20, 2008

"What's the deal with some new quad core coming out soon? One of the neurologists was salivating about it. I think he was talking about the Core2's maybe?" There's always new Core 2 processors coming out. The fastest right now is probably the Core 2 Extreme QX9775 @ 3.2GHz, which is supported in the Skulltrail "8-core" (2x quad-core) enthusiast desktop platform. It's a dual-CPU platform, based on Xeon Socket 771 server components, but with NVIDIA SLI for graphics. Big multi-tasking performance. Bigger $$$$. You can also run standard Xeon server-validated CPU's on the platform to save money, at the expense of some performance loss. Running dual Xeon's would make it comparable to a Mac Pro system, but it'd run Windows, and have SLI support for graphics (making it much better than a Mac Pro, and also MUCH cheaper). The Socket 775 version of the QX9775 is the QX9770. It is identical, except that it's designed for standard desktop motherboards with the usual, single CPU socket. Of course, he might be talking about the Nehalem chips which are not out yet. Intel is touting a new type of integrated graphics processing with them. I have no idea where that's going to go though. NVIDIA has some really good concepts about GPGPU (general processing GPU) too, but that's all they are for now. They are not a marketable product yet, so I would take any so-called leaked pre-production information about them with a grain of salt. I've decided a long time ago not to be too forward-looking about future products in the hardware industry. It makes one a poor salesman after all. I would say the most exciting thing right now is the NVIDIA GTX 200 graphics cards because they integrate an AGEIA PhysX PPU chip on the card. Many games and a few application packages offer PhysX support already, and faster video card speed always makes games run smoother, so they are a worthwhile investment. "Investing in the future" in regards to hardware purchases would mean that you would never buy anything. For professional imaging and engineering, you should be looking at the high-end Quadro and Tesla products from NVIDIA. Package them with a workstation-class system, like a Xeon-packing, dual-CPU rig with ECC RAM, and you have a system that will fly through those computationally-heavy apps.

Waethorn

on Jun 20, 2008

"Well no iPhone in Canada yet. I can't say anything." 3G is in and around Toronto, Hamilton, and Vancouver. That's about it. The rest is EDGE (where available). Rogers & Fido call their 3G, "Vision". So when you're looking at their access maps, that's what you have to look for to see 3G coverage. According to some sources, data rates will follow the Rogers "Flex Rate Plan" which is available for business wireless users, meaning it'll cost from $50 to $100 depending on your data usage - from up to 500MB at the $50 level, all the way to (ONLY) 5GB at the $100 level, with a few levels in between. No sources are saying that it includes phone usage, so it sounds like you'll have to get a separate voice plan IN ADDITION TO that $50-$100/month. It's $30/GB over 5GB.

DRWAM

on Jun 20, 2008

Thanks. I do remember him mentioning QX-something, but I was reviewing an brain MRI with him so I was not picking up everything. [Figuring out if the patient had an intracranial hemorrhage seem a little more important]. But I may have heard him mention Nehalem as well. Either way, he did mention that the shipping date was after August. He builds his own as well. Thanks again, Doc

johnpapola

on Jun 20, 2008

Paul, Your commentary is dead on. However, the iCabal routine is now officially pathetic and just dead wrong. Who the hell is this iCabal? Either devote a post to naming names or drop this BS. @cesjr "Will Paul ever stop making the strawman argument that mac fans won't or don't criticize apple (or allow such criticism where warranted)? No, of course not. He'll keep saying it even though it's demonstrably untrue. Because on these matters, Paul doesn't care about the truth." You are 100% dead right, my friend. There are countless examples of everyone from David Pogue to John Gruber criticizing Apple. Paul's iCabal nonsense is exactly as you said... a BS strawman. It's a pathetic rhetorical device for someone that doesn't need to use one. Stick to your honest criticism Paul and it will serve you well. But continuing to use "iCabal" is nothing but flamebaiting. There is no excuse for it.

RobertC

on Jun 20, 2008

cesjr, I've been reading Paul's blog for a while now and I'm quite frankly sick of you coming on here with your confected outrage about some perceived bias against Apple. At the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding: Paul owns several Apple products and he generally advocates that many Apple products are excellent. So what's your underlying motive other than to cause trouble and troll? Yes, you're a dyed-in-wool Apple fanatic, but who cares? If you don't like what Paul writes, go elsewhere - it is a simple as that. Australia doesn't even have a bill of rights, yet I understand more than you belligerent yanks sometimes!

Anthony Cook

on Jun 20, 2008

Im looking into upgrading from my HTC S620 and im still deciding if the iPhone would be a worthy upgrade. In England 3g converge cover almost everywhere, probably because we as so small. :) So that would be an advantage. The downside for me is going to cost me quite a big, around £640 for the full contract period. Knowing me i won’t be able to resist when everyone is getting geared up near launch. :) If they would have been out when i watched the Steve Jobs keynote i would have had one by now that’s for sure. :) If you’re out there Ste haws that for a sales technique

cesjr

on Jun 20, 2008

"cesjr, I've been reading Paul's blog for a while now and I'm quite frankly sick of you coming on here with your confected outrage about some perceived bias against Apple." First - I'm not outraged. I just think Paul's wrong (on some big things). He's expressing his opinion. I'm expressing mine. If Paul allows comments, that's what you get. If you don't like it, don't come here. Paul also brings this on himself in many instances. He doesn't have to throw around this iCabal thing - or make ridiculous claims like pretending there's some significant number of mac fans that can't stand any criticism of apple. Those people don't exist. Die hard mac fans complain about and criticize apple all the time. Get over it, Paul.

lotsamystuff

on Jun 21, 2008

I like dinosaurs.

subzerohitman721

on Jun 21, 2008

Its obvious that there is no such thing as perfection. No matter how good the iPhone is, someone will find fault with it. As do I, but I do think its an evolutionary phone. The biggest flaw of the iPhone is AT&T in America. For me personally, the lack of a physical keyboard, better camera, no replaceable battery, no MMS, no cut and paste, and ability to take it to other carriers makes it a dealbreaker. I use Sprint and I'm very happy with the service in the Dallas metro area. Even with Sprint's customer service issues, the service in Dallas is pretty good. Where AT&T's Edge network craps out in Dallas, I still get bars and reception. Most notably parts of south east Dallas in the Pleasant Grove area or school buildings, AT&T Edge service gets zero bars and no connection to network. Personally, if they did make a version of the iPhone for Sprint, more people would be able to use full 3G. But that won't happen, because of Sprint's leadership. I would like to own an iPhone, but nothing in this world could convince me to rejoin AT&T. Besides the ridiculous monthly expense, the call quality is very poor. On the freeway or Tollway? Constant dropped calls and gaps in service. Thats my experience.

DRWAM

on Jun 21, 2008

Subman, here in south Jersey, Sptint suck while ATT and Verizon have great reception. I guess that it depends where you live. I have had ATT for 2.4 yrs and Verizon for many before that. ATT gave me the best customer service as I have posted a few times here. ALso as above, 3G is pretty much all over NJ. BUT, I am looking for a good calender. Office doc support [also posted before] would be great, but if the contract price is right, I just might pull the trigger and buy it. Waethorn's tip of checking with IT first of course will probably ultimately make the selection for me, but we'll see. The IT guys now support Macs for many nonessential things, but still fall back on Windows when needed. The essentials are ruled by XP right now since we really don't need to upgrade to Vista. Besides, some older software probably won't support it.

subzerohitman721

on Jun 21, 2008

I was born in NJ and I have only visted Jersey only briefly in 1998 on my way to NYC. I know Verizon is good, because they are dominant down here in Dallas. My parents use Verizon with no complaints and I loved their DSL service. I'm itching to use their FIOS network. Infact, I saw at the mall FIOS in action and the inner geek within me salivated. For me, I want a music, text, camera and browsing phone. Would love to have that iPhone, but Sprint's customer service reps at buzzaboutwireless.com insist they don't need it. Good luck in finding that calender.

Joshu4

on Jun 21, 2008

@flahorn Rogers wireless has reputation as being the worst service provider here in Canada. I've never used fido, so for all i know, they could be all well and dandy. Having said that, i think that if i have to use EDGE, i'll be using a differant phone, thank-you very much. Because I prefer fast networks. :P

DRWAM

on Jun 21, 2008

Thanks sub. I'm probably getting Verizon triple play with FiOS in January, then decide if I will keep the Comcast account [which is paid by my group]. If I replace my Treo 650 with anything but the iPhone, I may switch everything [TV, internet, land and mobile phones] over to Verizon for a pretty big discount. Comcast has a discount for TV, internet and land phone, but I just don't trust their service, especially the land phone. Some of my friends continue to have problems with it. Now, iPhone battery replacement DIY talk, well at least for the first gen, so I would bet that the secong gen will be soon too. See below: " Meritline.com offers this 1450mAh Replacement iPhone Battery Pack for $24.99. Apply coupon code "RBPTI55POFF" to slice it to $11.25. With free shipping, it's a $1 drop and the lowest total price we could find. This kit includes tools to perform a do-it-yourself battery replacement on your Apple iPhone. Coupon ends June 23."

johnpapola

on Jun 21, 2008

@tristanh, For every loony mac user, there's a mac-basher that's every bit as zealot and ignorant. And what makes things worse is many of these crazy dorks are IT guys. Just watch for Waethorn. This troll thinks EVERYTHING Apple does is wrong and nearly everything Microsoft does is right. He's as bad as the worst Mac zealots. So the point is that every platform and interest group has crazy people. Paul's obsession with Mac zealots harms his credibility as an honest critic.

cesjr

on Jun 21, 2008

"There ARE a significant (however not majority) number of individuals in the Apple community that won't tolerate any criticism" And how do you know they won't tolerate any criticism of Apple? Do you know these people personally? Maybe they've criticized apple and you don't even know - since you don't know them, huh? What goes on here is that a mac fan disagrees with some argument some Windows fan makes - and then the Windows fan leaps to a completely baseless, ignorant assumption that the mac fan challenging his argument "can't stand any criticism of apple." It's a childish claim that really is just a way to avoid the substance. It's an attack on the person rather than the substance. It's called an ad hominem attack. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

xtreem0

on Jun 21, 2008

Personally I think that the only reason why Paul seems to be so reactive to mac users is because he gets tones of comments that constantly criticize him saying that his (opinion) was wrong and untrue ect. This has been happening even before he started going on about the iCabal stuff. Also the Vista hate might be contributing to his behavior. Anyways how did we get into talking about bashing each other when all the topic is is what the iPhone lacs? Cant anyone use the forums to debate the who is better crap rather than the comments?

cesjr

on Jun 21, 2008

"Personally I think that the only reason why Paul seems to be so reactive to mac users is because he gets tones of comments that constantly criticize him saying that his (opinion) was wrong and untrue ect." Your right, it has nothing to do with his often snarky tone and insults to mac fans (iCabal, etc).

dugbug

on Jun 22, 2008

good lord cesjr, you just reinforce the stereotype.

DRWAM

on Jun 22, 2008

Here's another: "Replace Your iPhone?s Battery For $7.29 (Plus Some Elbow-Grease)" http://www.applelinks.com/index.php/print/20422/

tayme

on Jun 22, 2008

@cesjr - "It's a classic strawman - you argue against a position that nobody (or almost nobody) is taking." And if you look at post number 8 at the link below, it is classic troll flamebait... http://community.winsupersite.com/blogs/paul/archive/2008/06/19/top-10-t... --tayme

Waethorn

on Jun 23, 2008

"Rogers wireless has reputation as being the worst service provider here in Canada. I've never used fido, so for all i know, they could be all well and dandy." There's 2 networks in Canada - CDMA/1x/EV-DO, or GSM/EDGE/HSDPA (Rogers calls it "HSPA" even though they only use HSDPA - HSPA is supposed to incorporate other HSxPA protocols like HSUPA). Bell, Telus, and most other small providers run off of the CDMA network. It is owned mostly by Bell Canada. Rogers, Fido, and any remaining providers (there are very few alternatives) run off of the GSM network, which is owned by Rogers. Rogers owns Fido also. Switching from one provider to another on the same network won't make much of a difference, aside from how good the antenna is in the phone. Switching networks will though. Bell's network has fast speed, and is in more areas, but reliability just isn't there. I'm on Telus myself, but am thinking about switching to Rogers when my contract is up at the end of the year. Rogers has better reliability, but a slower overall network, and HSDPA access is only mostly around Toronto. If you can access it, it's faster than Bell's network. "Having said that, i think that if i have to use EDGE, i'll be using a differant phone, thank-you very much." I'm considering a few options. I may use Rogers' Flex Rate Plan on a data device and just use a cheap phone for voice. The HTC Shift is a nice, compact computer that gives access to Windows Mobile as well as a fully-featured Windows Vista Business system. If I were to buy another smartphone instead, I'd probably buy an HTC Touch Pro when Rogers starts selling them. The Shift isn't what I would use as a main system though, and the price seems somewhat high. I may just end up building one out of Clevo's 12" TN121R shells. It's bigger, sure, and it doesn't have Windows Mobile (not a dealbreaker, because I can load up the full version of Outlook on it for Exchange capabilities), but it does have the ability to support HSDPA and Penryn processors, making it a worthwhile replacement for my 15.4" notebook that I currently use. Voice is still an issue though, so I think if I had to choose, it'd be either between the HTC Touch Pro and a 3.5G small tablet PC with a separate phone. I have to weigh the options between price and portability though. "For every loony mac user, there's a mac-basher that's every bit as zealot and ignorant. And what makes things worse is many of these crazy dorks are IT guys. Just watch for Waethorn. This troll thinks EVERYTHING Apple does is wrong and nearly everything Microsoft does is right. He's as bad as the worst Mac zealots." That, sir, is flamebait. You are the worst person here for that, especially considering you are a self-described Microsoft-hating, Jobs-worshipping, Mac fanboy coming to a Windows site. You are a bigger troll than anyone here.

subzerohitman721

on Jun 23, 2008

FYI, for anyone interested... My brother has been using AT&T U-Verse service here in Dallas and for the most part its pretty darn good. Very fast High Speed Internet and very clear television service. However, the only problem is with using TiVo. The U-Verse boxes autoshut down every 5 hours. Its their way of preserving bandwith. Currently there is no workaround. But I hear AT&T is working on one. Other than that, the service is pricey about what you'd pay for Triple Play or FIOS, but the quality is there. I recomend it if anyone is considering it. By the way, we ran 2 Vista notebooks and one XP desktop on it with no snags. The virtualized OS-X Tiger 10.4.9 ran well on U-Verse as well. Just putting this out there for those unfamiliar.

johnpapola

on Jun 23, 2008

@Waethorn, "That, sir, is flamebait. You are the worst person here for that, especially considering you are a self-described Microsoft-hating, Jobs-worshipping, Mac fanboy coming to a Windows site. You are a bigger troll than anyone here." Perhaps. But it's also a statement of unequivocal fact. You've never conceded that Apple done anything well or unique. Never. In the context of "mac freaks" and the "iCabal", you are a shining example of the myopic Microshills on the other side of that fence. Dude, I'm always open to a fair dialog, but I've pretty much given up on you. You hate Apple irrationally. I don't hate Microsoft. They make some good stuff, so great stuff even... and some garbage. Paul and I agree more than we disagree about Microsoft actually. Hence my presence here. I like to stay up on the world of Windows. But I try to keep my posting to the Apple-related articles... of which there are many. So call me a troll if you'd like. That's fine. But that doesn't mean you're not a total blind, partisan hack. A knowledgeable windows expert to be sure. But a hack when it comes to all things Apple.

Dipsh t Admin

on Jun 24, 2008

"So the point is that every platform and interest group has crazy people. Paul's obsession with Mac zealots harms his credibility as an honest critic." True to a point. I simply don't see some of these Windows-Jihadists in my regular dealings, since I don't visit Mac or Linux centric sites. However, since we are on a Windows centric site, the brushback we are going to see is going to be from Mac fans, and that is the behavior that Paul is targeting, because that is within his realm of knowledge. None of us know that amount of e-mail Paul gets, but I would assume that he gets quite a lot, mostly from Mac fans, and I'm sure that most of those e-mails are negative in nature to Paul's point of view. Paul can back that up if he pleases. So I can see how Paul would feel the way he does. Now I do frequent several non-computer related forums. That is actually where I spend much of my online time. I can say from experience that when I am on those forums, and a computer topic comes up, the most vocal of them are the Apple fans. So my view is muddied when I see people post computer problems/questions, and while many try to help, a vocal few say such uninformative things such as "get a Mac" as the be all and end all to their problems. And as I've stated before, i think the iCabal term is quite descriptive. Does it have some negative connotations? Yes. But if you look at the release of the Mac with the Superbowl ad, you can see that the ad basically shows a cabal breaking up a bigger power, causing a revolution of sorts. This is exactly what a cabal does. The basis for the "typical" vocal Apple fan is rooted in this.

Waethorn

on Jun 24, 2008

"I like to stay up on the world of Windows." In the interest of using one of Paul's lines in context: **LIAR!!** "We don't like Windows. That's the point." - jp http://community.winsupersite.com/blogs/paul/archive/2008/05/19/report-m... Just to further reinforce my argument: "As for us "coming here and bashing Windows"... I can say that I don't bash windows." - also jp http://community.winsupersite.com/blogs/paul/archive/2008/05/28/windows-... EAT CROW, TROLL!

Dude1313

on Jun 24, 2008

Great you caught him contradicting himself... You still haven't answered his questions about Apple, from what I've read of your posts the only thing you've ever coincided (Waethorn) is that Woz was a brilliant engineer... in other news scientists have discovered that water is wet and the sun is hot. Its a wonder how Apple has survived oh, I don't know 20+ years without him. Like it or not your game is all about ad hominem attacks and straw man arguments, nothing more when it comes to Apple. Dipsh t Admin- In reading (and in some cases rereading your posts) I'm seeing a a greater understanding as time goes by about your opinions, I disagree with some of them but at least they have lgioc behind them. In light of that I offer this up. I wish I knew who posted this as I can't find the link; but this sums up my experience as well as that of the original poster: Wow, what a ridiculously broad brush you all are painting Mac users with. For every rabid Mac fan there is an MS fan, Ford fan, Chevy fan, XBox Fan, Wii fan, etc. Sure you are thinking "but Mac users are worse". I believe this is more of a defense mechanism. For all of the Mac fans faults, why then as I, a Mac user (and I don't consider myself a rabid fanboy) has put up with the following comments over my twenty years of using Macs: - "ewww, you use a Mac" - "I guess you don't know much about computers." - "Macs are nice looking, but I need something powerful" - "Didn't Apple go out of business" (even in the mid 90's, Apple had lots of money - "Didn't MS buy Apple?" - "Macs use too many proprietary components" (I didn't know there was special Apple RAM and Apple hard disks) - "We won't allow your Mac to dial up to our PPP dialup pool. Those AppleTalk packets will flood are network and create a security risk." - "Macs can't go on the corporate network - it's too big of a security risk" (They let people bring their Windows laptops from home and plug in). - "There's no software for Macs" (Do they think we buy a Mac just to play with the Finder?) IT Managers in several large corporations have spread rumors and lies about the Mac platform in an effort to get rid of them. Mac users have always been treated like second hand citizens by corporate IT staff. Mac users have been given phony excuses to exclude them from networks, workgroups, etc. IT people have purposefully selected proprietary Windows-only solutions when more robust cross platform solutions existed. Read: MSCE sabotage. Even in the mid-90s, Apple had money, was selling a lot of Macs, but the press pounded on them with terms like "beleaguered". If the press have not placed an inordinate amount of bad press on them, there would be less of a problem with Mac mindshare. Forgive these Mac fanboys for being a little defensive. If there weren't so many anti-Apple fanboys, you wouldn't have this "problem."

Dude1313

on Jun 24, 2008

Note that's logic and MCSE ;)

Dipsh t Admin

on Jun 24, 2008

Thanks Dude for your explanation. I was easily going to lump you in to the troll category, but explaining your position goes a long way. Once again, I will counter that the reason that us "Windows-Jihadists (TM)" attack the Mac fans is particularly because they do come on to a Windows centric site. Even though Paul has very varied interests, one does not need to look for to see that this is Windows over here. Just looking at the brief bio information below mentions Windows. Once again, I have only a certain scope of knowledge, and that has formed the basis of my opinions. One cannot deny that there have been a fair share of Apple trolls on this site. I've called out fivepoint on here as one of them. Usually the textual maniacal laughing is a good indicator of ones "trollness". And as I've mentioned before long ago, I've been with Paul on his sites for a long time, probably 4-5 years or so. Lotsa and tayme can back me up, but we had a certain troll on here named bonch (can't forget vandil either) that was about as extreme as one could imagine. Do a Google search for "bonch site:windowsitpro.com" and you will get an idea of what we had put up with for a long time. Just as an example, and this was one of the tamer posts: http://windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?articleid=50615&cpage=1#feedb... What this means is that Paul has a certain realm of knowledge of the Apple world and its users. And when you have clowns like bonch, the view is not good. And as an IT admin, I will counter some of the Mac and IT claims. We have to remember that IT has to test things thoroughly before letting them in, since we will ultimately be responsible for them. As it stands, I barely have enough time to eat lunch some days, let alone work on testing foreign operating systems. Call it entropy or whatever you want, but it isn't easy over here. And my busyness has nothing to do with Windows issues. It's a lot of stuff all lumped in to one. Remember that we also like to have standardized hardware that can be maintained by various third parties. We need to competitively bid things. Since Apple has made nearly no inklings of even wanting to get in to the enterprise market, why should we just roll over since some users want to use some other piece of equipment. The same thing would happen if a user wanted to come on my network with Windows XP Home, 98 or earlier. Or things like consumer laptops, that lack enterprise features like fingerprint readers, WAN, Express Card slots, etc. These are all considerations that have nothing to do with sabotage.

Waethorn

on Jun 24, 2008

"You still haven't answered his questions about Apple, from what I've read of your posts the only thing you've ever coincided (Waethorn) is that Woz was a brilliant engineer" I've also said that after the plane crash, he's suffered from brain damage ever since. "You've never conceded that Apple done anything well or unique. Never." Again, **LIAR!!** I've always said Asteroid and CommonPoint were pretty awesome.

Waethorn

on Jun 24, 2008

To, uh, "DUDE": Here's my summary of why many of those comments are correct: "Macs are nice looking, but I need something powerful" - Well, maybe if they used DESKTOP processors, you might actually get your money's worth. I mean, when you have to pay well over $2000 JUST to get a quad-core processor (low-end Mac Pro), you know they're ripping you off. "Didn't MS buy Apple?" - Actually, when Jobs was brought back in, they wouldn't have survived on their own at the time. They were hurtin' bad! "Macs use too many proprietary components" (I didn't know there was special Apple RAM and Apple hard disks) - Then you don't remember that laptops of more than a few years ago all used proprietary RAM. Before DDR SDRAM was standardized in notebook computers, MOST manufacturers were using proprietary modules (including Apple). Also, you conveniently forget that Apple was one of the only OEM's using SCSI hard drives back when IDE was widely accepted by PC manufacturers. SCSI was slow, expensive, complex to set up (relative to IDE), and availability was poor. Then there's the PowerPC chip, the display connectors, the case-mounted optical drives, etc.... "We won't allow your Mac to dial up to our PPP dialup pool. Those AppleTalk packets will flood are network and create a security risk." - You mean like Safari? "Macs can't go on the corporate network - it's too big of a security risk" - You mean like Safari? You mean like a friend of mine that works for an IT security firm that has 20+ unclassified OS X remote code exploits and another 50+ that have been privately reported to Apple and never fixed since early OS X betas? You mean like how some of his clients that *used to* use Macs had their corporate firewalls hacked and corporate intellectual property and client data stolen right from under their white plastic monitors? Summary: Apple won't do anything to garner the support of enterprises. The iPhone Exchange support is a half-assed last-(read: only) ditch effort, and a desparate one at that. Security is a joke to Apple. The inflated pricing, lack of choice, lack of compatibility, and ultimately the image that some of you (pap) seem to favour are ultimately what are holding it back in the consumer space too. If they had honestly kept the whitebox builder contracts and just used standard Intel hardware and platform architecture all along, they'd probably be in a much higher competitive standing today, close to the marketshare ranks of Acer or Lenovo. For now, they do nothing but create an expensive, elitist, outsider persona to personal computing, and their marketshare demonstrates that. What they do is bad for consumers. What they do for business, is, well, just nothing.

johnpapola

on Jun 24, 2008

@Waethorn, You are a moron. Stating that I don't like Windows or that "We", as in mac users, don't like Windows... is NOT BASHING WINDOWS! It's stating a personal preference. BMWs are great cars. I don't like them personally. That's not bashing BMWs. I don't bash Windows on this site and that's a statement of truth. I don't come here and say that "Windows Sucks" or "just get a mac" or anything like the insane, fanatical vitriol that you spew. Calling me a liar for asserting a preference is completely idiotic and just plain wrong. You, on the other hand have been shown to be a liar on multiple fronts. The latest lies about Snow Leopard having "no new APIs" or Open CL just being a rip-off of CUDA are blatant lies on your part. Provable, incontrovertible lies. @Dipsht, You're a totally reasonable guy. No question Apple users are vocal. That's what happens to downtrodden minority interest groups. The Mac may be making a comeback now, but it's still a small minority and Microsoft's efforts to drive all things to be windows-only or windows-preferred can cause us trouble. Just look at Outlook's Web UI. It's crap on firefox and safari and great on Windows IE. But, yeah, there are some vocal moron mac users out there.

BrightrevCarl

on Jun 24, 2008

Guys, a computer is just a tool. Sometimes a hammer (Windows) is better than a mallet (Mac). Arguing about hammers versus mallets is silly. So basically, you're ALL wrong. :-)

johnpapola

on Jun 24, 2008

@Dude1313: Great post. As you know, Waethorn will ignore your reasonable post since he's a pinhead zealot. But, of course, all of your examples of Mac slams throughout the ages are correct and are things mac users have had to endure for ages. You forgot: "Macs are toys" and "Macs are just for graphics". @Dipsht: "Once again, I will counter that the reason that us "Windows-Jihadists (TM)" attack the Mac fans is particularly because they do come on to a Windows centric site" This doesn't hold up for Paul's Apple-related work. Paul writes about Apple ALL THE TIME. And since the internet is driven by linking, it's very easy to follow links to Apple-specific articles as a Mac user. Just take note of the comments sections in non-Apple posts. They're nearly vacant. Mac users care about defending the Mac. Windows Jihadists seems to go out of their way to dump on a minority platform they could easily ignore. But, indeed, there are some nasty trolls with "LOL, HAHAHAHAHA" action spewing like crazy. And wow, is "bonch" a tool. Even so, those of us that are rational Mac fans are simply asking those of you with a brain not to get lazy and fall into insulting generalizations. Paul could do himself a great service by calling out the "iCabal" instead of making it this great strawman. Is John Gruber a member? Is David Pogue? Who are these conspirators, Paul? @Waethorn: "For now, they do nothing but create an expensive, elitist, outsider persona to personal computing, and their marketshare demonstrates that. What they do is bad for consumers." Yeah, having the best reliability, customer service and customer satisfaction is SO BAD FOR CONSUMERS. Fighting the RIAA to keep down prices is TERRIBLE FOR CONSUMERS. Making the iPhone among the cheapest smartphones + plans is really price gouging. You are a hack, sir. You've claimed the iPhone isn't innovative, while Paul has called it one of the most innovative devices of the decade. You've outright lied about OSX features and APIs while simultaneously claiming to have no information. You are just a hater with a personal stake is bashing Apple since they are a competitor for consumer and small business customers with your white-box PC operation. Grow up and get some intellectual honesty.

johnpapola

on Jun 24, 2008

@Waethorn, And one more thing... Both Paul and Mary Jo Foley both has said repeatedly that "the enterprise" is anathema to innovation since it's a slow-moving, risk-averse world. They've both said essentially the same thing about Microsoft itself, calling the company "a copy-cat with Apple envy". This is Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley on Windows Weekly saying these things. Why would Apple want to pursue the low-margin, innovation-crushing world of enterprise desktops when they've been able to TRIPLE the size of the company PURELY ON THE CONSUMER?? Apple shareholders sure are lucky you don't advise the company. Enterprise-ready doesn't have to matter for Apple. And that doesn't make them worthless. Obviously. It makes them worth TRIPLE Dell, actually.

Showing 1-50 of 57 items

Discuss this Article 57

Please Log In or Register to post comments.

IT/Dev Connections

Office 365 InfoCenter

What I Use

What I Use: On the Road 21

What I Use: March 2013 33

WinSuperSite.com

Site Features

Penton

Follow Paul

Search WinSuperSite.com

Related Penton Sites

Seven iPhone Disappointments

Discuss this Article 57

Please Log In or Register to post comments.

Related Articles

IT/Dev Connections

Office 365 InfoCenter

What I Use

What I Use: On the Road 21

What I Use: March 2013 33

WinSuperSite.com

Site Features

Penton

Follow Paul

Search WinSuperSite.com

Related Penton Sites