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There's a Velociraptor in my PC

Aug. 31, 2008 Paul Thurrott | Paul Thurrott's Supersite for Windows

A Western Digital VelociRaptor, that is.

My desktop PC is almost two years old now. (I purchased it back in October 2006.) It's an HP Pavilion m7690y tower machine with a 2.4 GHz Core 2 Duo E6600 processor, so it's getting a bit long in the tooth, though it's been very reliable overall. As is so often the case with my machines, I've upgraded some components over time. I bumped the RAM from 2 GB to 4 GB immediately, which was sort of a no-brainer given the price of memory. I also upgraded the very basic video card it came with, twice, first to an ATI Radeon X1600 at purchase time and then earlier this year to an ATI Radeon HD 3850. (Both were midline 3D cards when I bought them.) I've upgraded the display a few times as well, though I suppose that's technically a separate issue.

From a storage perspective, I also purchased a 500 GB HP Personal Media Drive for the PC (it has the full-sized PMD) and have more recently begun using a second USB-based external drive as well. Both are easily removable, so I keep my documents, media files, and so on there, allowing me to wipe out the internal drive more easily for reinstalls. Until now, I've kept the 400 GB drive the system came with in the PC. But this past week I purchased a 300 GB WD VelociRaptor with the idea of extending the life of the PC a bit. I usually upgrade every two years, but I think this might put it over the top. The drive is a 10,000 RPM unit, compared to the more typical 7800 RPM drives you typically see today. So it should be pretty quick. I certainly seems so in just a few day so use. As or more important, it's completely and noticeably silent. I love silent.

So if I'm lucky, this will fend off a desktop upgrade until at least next spring.

I've also begun a new data replication strategy that works in tandem with what I'm doing with Live Mesh. I'm storing one copy of my Documents, Pictures, and Music folders in the normal place (C:\Users\Paul\*) and then replicating them to the PMD with SyncToy 2.0 nightly. (It's all backed up to WHS as well, and the most vital content is also replicated to Live Mesh.) So far so good.

Here are a few shots of the drive install...

   

Discuss this Article 45

mikegalos@msn.com
on Aug 31, 2008
Paul Did you see any change in your Window Experience Index numbers after the change?
pthurrott
on Aug 31, 2008
I didn't think to look at it before, but I must have a screenshot to that somewhere. It's 5.9 for "primary data transfer rate" now, which I believe is the highest score you can get. My overall score, 5.2, is held down by the CPU (5.2) and memory (5.4). The two graphics scores are also 5.9s. --Paul
DRWAM
on Aug 31, 2008
I'm really in to RAID 0, which seems noticeably faster than any of my 7200RPM drives [BTW you have a typo up there that shows 7800 instead of 7200]. I would bet a RAID 0 10,000 RPM drives would scream, but I wonder if it would be that noticeable compared to one 10,000 RPM drive. The even the last two HP laptops that I've configured for a friend and a nephew had two 7200RPM HD's in a RAID 0, the last had VIsta 64 bit and a nice vid card to use as a tower replacement. Needless to say, they gice screaming performance. That's a nice rig Paul, but not enough neon for me. And I like my temp gauges to make sure that I don't fry my toys when I play. Another geek doc friend tells me that he's awaiting a new 3GHz quad core Intel chip that soon to arrive, and may be less expensive, but a must have.
subzerohitman721
on Aug 31, 2008
That's a beautiful piece of machine there, Paul. Cool to see one of your machines. Also, its preety sweet to see you break it open and show us what you're working with. I usually upgrade hard drives on a 3 year rotation. Memory and video cards get upgraded on a 2 year rotation. Right now my processor and video card are pulling down my W.E.I. scores down. But I elected to get a power efficient AMD Athlon 64x2, so that I'm not blowing up the electric bill. Also, my ATI HD 2600 Pro isn't anything to frown at. I'm fully prepared for HD presentation. However, I think my more immediate upgrade should be the DVD combo drive and my monitor. I'm waiting for a good sale on a 20"-ish flat screen that does 1080P. Its rare but I'm sure as we get closer to holiday sales, I"ll find something good. Not to mention some badly needed overtime. Also, I'm weighing an upgrade to my standard DVD burner or should I go up to Blu-Ray? We've got some over $100 Blu-Ray burner's here in Dallas area shops. Sony Blu-Ray Drive 4x $129.99 and Lite On Blu-Ray Drive 4x $159.99. A bit tempting but I thinking maybe overkill? I think for certain the monitor is my first priority but the burner will be next.
Anthony Cook
on Aug 31, 2008
Paul's desktop is quite similar spec to my machine, i find that upgrading components from time to time gives my machine a little needed boost, When i originally made up my desktop the specs were: Intel Pentium D, 1GB DDR2 Ram, Onboard Radeon x700, 80gb IDE hard drive. Nowadays they look a little like this Intel Core 2 Duo, 4GB DDR2 Ram, Nvidia 512mb 8800, 500GB SATAII Drive I can guarantee its cost me a lot less to upgrade than to buy a whole new machine, plus you get to customize it to your needs, so no unnecessary addons that your paying extra for.
DRWAM
on Sep 1, 2008
It must be an upgrade bug or itch as I am awaiting a new CPU for my daughter's eMachine, which has an upgraded mobo any way when the original failed after the warranty expired. I used CyberpowerPC years ago, for my mom's PC, and configured 3 machines for friends over the past two years. They love their machines, but one guy got a bad install disc from them and could not reach service for a while as they claimed to have just moved. I like their prices, but Wae told me to watch out for cheaper cases, although they offer CoolerMaster. I usually look up the parts at Newegg and read the customer reviews. They seem to have good prices, but the vid cards are kinda a strange selection. They have name brand stuff and the 'better' vid card is EVGA, which is unfamiliar to me, but most get good ratings at Newegg, so maybe I am just outa touch with all the vid card companies since I have not built in 3 yrs. Any one know of EVGA?
gorath
on Sep 1, 2008
DrWam, my experience of EVGA has been very very good.
DRWAM
on Sep 1, 2008
Thanks gorath. It doesn't seem to save any money building my own, so I just may use them myself, but we'll see. I bought a Sagitta case for my daughter when I rebuilt her eMachine, but she hated it, so I have a spare case that I really like, and can give my brother my 3.4 GHz P4 rig that I built. That Prescott CPU ran so hot that I needed a Thermaltake Silent Tower to cool it as the stock retail Intel fan didn't do the job. I still want to see the 3 GHz quad that my buddy was raving about, but I need to find out which one it was, or will be.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 1, 2008
DRWAM Right now there's a 2.93GHz Quad Core available (The Core 2 Extreme Qx6800) (But at about $1100 for just the chip, it's a little rich for my blood)
gorath
on Sep 1, 2008
Mike and DrWam, maybe he was talking about the quad Xeons? they're available in the UK for around the £620 range
johnpapola
on Sep 1, 2008
Good call on the upgrade, Paul. My Mac pro has the OS on a first gen raptor and it's a great drive. Quick question. Why use synctoy as a back mechanism? I thought there was a time-machine-like backup built into Vista. Isn't there?
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 1, 2008
gorath Certainly possible. There are several 3GHz Quad Core Xeons out.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 1, 2008
John Paul is a belt, suspenders, rope and thumbtacks kind of guy. He's got backups of his backups of his backups stored online, offline and offsite... (Seriously, he's got at least 4 copies of some files from his description) Not that I'm criticizing. Better to have too many copies than too few. But you should realize that his solution isn't just the minimal backup that a single backup system provides.
johnpapola
on Sep 1, 2008
@Mike, Oh, I'm in that camp too. I've got home folder on RAID-5 in my mac pro, plus an external time machine drive, plus weekly syncs with my laptop via chronosync (for which Live Mesh would be really really perfect if it works as well as Paul says). My photo library is in Aperture and vaulted to two separate drives. All that said... I'm curious what the time machine equivolent is on Vista. I know volume shadow copy does delta change saves on the same volume. Is there a mechanism for scheduled backups akin to Time Machine for drive failure? Windows Home server seems pretty awesome. There's just something very elegant about volume backup and document versioning having a unified interface the way time machine does. It's very easy.
DRWAM
on Sep 1, 2008
Gents, I will find out the CPU he was talking about and post it. He said it was very affordable and many were awaiting it. Also, I've got three to four drives in each of my 3 computers that I use as well as two external for backing up. My buddy that bought the $4,000+ PC [yep, the 2.93GHz quad] from CyberpowerPC also uses Synctoy for backup of files. He claims he relies less on Norton Ghost now, and has been strongly recommending Synctoy for months.
subzerohitman721
on Sep 1, 2008
Thanks gents for the backup reminder, I need to do so. If you'll excuse me, my work is cut out for me. Later.
Mum
on Sep 1, 2008
"Better to have too many copies than too few." I repeat that. It's good to have a system though, because it doesn't matter how many backups you have if you don't know which ones are current. Otherwise you'll end up throwing something important away. I never keep any work files on my computer hard drives but instead use portable drives, which then get timemachined to backup drives both at home and at work. That means I always have backups both at home and at work in addition to the work drive.
DRWAM
on Sep 1, 2008
Mum, I stopped using TimeMachine for Leopard and just make an exact copy using 'Restore' on the Disk utility. For Windows, I just backup important files [not the OS] as I've found that it works better to do a clean install, if system restore doesn't help me. My Windows problems usually come from third party software installs, but substantially decreased after SP2.
johnpapola
on Sep 1, 2008
@everyone, So what is the Time Machine equivalent in Vista? I want to know what to tell some of my family that have PCs. Is volume shadow copy present in Home Premium? Is the backup center? Does it have automated backup that can restore a bootable system after a drive failure?
subzerohitman721
on Sep 1, 2008
@johnpapola, In Vista Ultimate, Business, and Enterprise editions, its called Backup Status and Configuration. Its here you can do a complete PC backup, back up files, or restore files. You can find this option in the Accessories, System Tools folder in the programs menu of Vista. The complete PC backup restores programs, system settings, and files. In the other versions, its called Back Up and Restore Center and doesn't have the complete PC backup. Hope that helps ya.
johnpapola
on Sep 1, 2008
@Sub, I have Home Premium. Can you have it do scheduled and incremental backups? Why the heck is complete PC backup NOT in home premium? That legitimately stinks. WTF, right? Am I wrong? Why not have backup be fully featured in all versions?
whiplash55
on Sep 1, 2008
@john yes you can do incremental backup with Home Premium, I don't know why the didn't give us a full backup, really annoying. That said the incremental backup worked great to restore my daughters machine when she downloaded and installed something called PC antispyware. We recovered all her files down to the desktop icons just as they were before the reinstall. You do have to reinstall the programs first Time Machine works okay, I prefer Super Duper though as do most long term Mac users I know. It seems more reliable.
whiplash55
on Sep 1, 2008
I'm planning on putting one of these Velociraptors in my next build. I'm still not sure about the quad-core processors being worth the lower clock speeds/$ compared to the dual-cores. Has anyone (Paul) heard if Windows 7 will take advantage of multi-cores better?
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 1, 2008
whiplash Actually, the kernel used in all the Windows NT based operating systems does fine on multiprocessor/multicore scenarios up to at least 32 processors since that's commonly seen in the server versions that use the same kernel. What will or won't do well are applications depending on how well they're written for multithreading or how much they use the new parallelism libraries such as TPL or PLINQ.
subzerohitman721
on Sep 1, 2008
@johnpapola. whiplash is very much correct. And I agree with you 100%. The complete PC backup should be all flavors of Windows and it baffles me too. Then again, after fixing SP2 for XP and having to start over the Longhorn/Vista milestones, time might have not been on the Longhorn/Vista team's side to complete it in the Home versions. But thanks for the complaint, I'll go blog it on the Engineering Windows 7 blog. Perhaps if enough of us make a big enough stink about it, Sinofsky and company will make sure that Windows 7 has it in all versions the ultimately come up with. Also, if customers write Microsoft, perhaps they can add it into Vista SP2. Would be a worthwhile addition to SP2. Thanks for the blogging ideas, john. Very much appreciated.
Waethorn
on Sep 2, 2008
"I would bet a RAID 0 10,000 RPM drives would scream" No, but your data would. After knowing 8 separate people that used WD Raptor 10,000 RPM drives (of differing sizes and models) that failed in RAID 0, I can honestly say that they are THE WORST option to store data on. What this Velociraptor *THING* looks like is a standard 2.5" SAS drive with the SCSI command processing ripped out, and a 3.5" form-factor heatsink slapped on. Ask Steve Gibson why Western Digital drives are bad.... WD makes "RAID Edition" hard drives for a reason. And they AREN'T 10,000 RPM. "I wonder if it would be that noticeable compared to one 10,000 RPM drive" Well, considering that 2x 10,000 RPM WD drives aren't reliable in RAID, I can say that if you want good performance from hard drives, buy 2x Seagate Barracuda ES.2 SATA drives. They are workhorse drives, and two of them in RAID 0 are a helluva lot more reliable than anything WD is pushing out. When you can buy 2x 500GB Seagate enterprise-class drives for less than the amount for 1 single Velociraptor, and the performance is still better, then WD has got nothing on Seagate.
Waethorn
on Sep 2, 2008
"What will or won't do well are applications depending on how well they're written for multithreading or how much they use the new parallelism libraries such as TPL or PLINQ." Intel's marketing on the matter has always been about multitasking and system responsiveness more than anything else. BTW: Where are the MTBF values on WD's pages? I'll tell you what they are: P*SS ALL and JACK SH*T!
lotsamystuff
on Sep 2, 2008
Western Digital? Seriously? You don't like your data very much, eh?
DRWAM
on Sep 2, 2008
I actually have RAID 0 Seagates and WD's, each are the less expensive 250 GB with 8MB cache, but they are backed up regulaly. Thanks all as it is good info to know. I'm getting old and would probably have an MI if I lost everything on my two main computers.
Waethorn
on Sep 2, 2008
"I'm getting old and would probably have an MI if I lost everything on my two main computers." The people I know that had the WD's had BM'ed themselves, if that's anything similar.... ;)
Dipsh t Admin
on Sep 2, 2008
Yeah, I'd go with a Seagate Barracuda too. I've been contemplating upgrading, but I'm unsure whether the performance benefits would be worth it. I don't really need the space right now, so I'll probably just wait. I know the slow drive in my laptop would certainly benefit from an upgrade. In my mind, having a backup device directly attached to the computer or in the same structure even is a risk that I don't want to take with my data. Too many bad things can happen outside of a hard drive failure that I keep my backups off site. And without SLA's and the necessary security, I wouldn't keep a lot of my data in the cloud either.
Waethorn
on Sep 2, 2008
"I know the slow drive in my laptop would certainly benefit from an upgrade." What speed is it? 7200RPM drives are a big advantage over 5400RPM. Don't bother with so-called "hybrid drives" though, as most of them are only available in 5400RPM and are very expensive for the amount of RAM you get on them. If you have a free mini-PCIe slot, get an Intel TurboMemory card (they now have 2GB models), and it'll boost the performance on top of that 7200RPM drive speed. Many have 16MB of cache, whereas 5400's often have 8MB. Very few have 32MB though. Do the drive speed upgrade first if you're still using a 5400RPM drive, as that'll give you the biggest speed advantage. TurboMemory is cheap though - 1GB is < $40.
johnpapola
on Sep 2, 2008
@Sub. You're welcome! Look at this! Mac and PC users coming together. It's like a utopian dream. Heh. But seriously, this is the cost of artificial segmenting of the product to drive up Average Selling Price. It's false value creation (or should I say, value destruction and price inflation). "Then again, after fixing SP2 for XP and having to start over the Longhorn/Vista milestones, time might have not been on the Longhorn/Vista team's side to complete it in the Home versions." I don't believe that's possible. Isn't Vista all one codebase shipping on the disc with certain features disabled until you unlock them with the right key? This is a pure marketing/pricing strategy from what I can see with no technical reasons or merits. That's fine. But to segment backup functionality is just wrong. Everyone can benefit by full-featured backup. That should be a niche, high-margin, function. Maybe I'm just ignorant... but I think I'm right here.
DRWAM
on Sep 2, 2008
Whiplash, While Super Duper can give incremental backups, at least the retail version I think, but I'm not certain of the free version. However, 'Restore' in the DIsk Utility is what I use once a week for a complete back up. SuperDuper has failed on me and a friend once, but Restore has worked perfectly. CCC was what I used for a while until I found "Restore"
DRWAM
on Sep 2, 2008
I'm wondering if the CPU my buddy is awaiting is a 3GHz AMD Phenom Quad 65nm SOI or 45nm SOI. Anyone heard of this and potential pricing? I only see him occassiionally at the hospital and I hate to call him since he's a busy Neurologist. I could tell him that I had double vision for a minute and by the way, about that CPU...
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 2, 2008
DRWAM, Wouldn't you tell him you had quad vision for 333 picoseconds? (btw, to understand one reason why we're not seeing speed increases, remember that light only travels about 4 inches in that time)
Mum
on Sep 2, 2008
DRWAM I don't actually worry about the system itself so much. Since OS X came I think I've had to do just one reinstall - on an out-of-the-box MacBook that was messed up by the whatever-it's-called assistant that's supposed to move your stuff over really easily. I have to have two machines anyway in order to be able to carry on working should the other one fail (knocking on wood). My work stuff generates maybe 1000 gigs per year these days so the OS backup with photos and music etc. doesn't weigh much anyway. For Mail archiving I use MailSteward on both the laptop and desktop and they're both successfully archiving onto the same database file on an external hd (whenever I remember to plug it in).
Waethorn
on Sep 2, 2008
"Everyone can benefit by full-featured backup." As can spyware-writers. This is the main reason why it's not in home versions - because home users are more succeptible to viruses and spyware. Backing up the entire PC is not a good idea for most home users because of this reason. Backing up data and reinstalling applications from scratch is a much better idea. I fix more computers that come in for service for viruses and spyware by reformatting and reinstalling Windows and apps from scratch rather than relying on one of their own backups, or by using System Restore. Cleanups just aren't even worth the trouble anymore either, but most customers don't know how to properly do a reformat, reinstall Windows, get Windows Updates, download the latest drivers, and install and update their software in a single sitting. It's also the one of the main reasons why their security solution - OneCare - doesn't do the same thing. For the number of problems that spyware and viruses can cause to Windows, it's just not a big priority to backup a semi-infected, or broken Windows installation.
DRWAM
on Sep 2, 2008
Wae, we think identical on this. Now, RAID 1 seems like a bad idea for the above reasons as well as corrupted data and bad installs gone wrong. Also, we all bought Dells 2 to 3 yrs ago, but one one doc insisted that we all get RAID 1, but 4 of 5 had drive failures and the 2nd drive was not recognized at all. If they had a hardware [hard drive] failure of the boot drive, would the 2nd drive automatically boot? Each of the 4 had to reinstall from scratch, so RAID 1 did not help. They even called Dell tech support [which is useless] and could not find the 2nd drive.
subzerohitman721
on Sep 2, 2008
@johnpapola, Yeah, I still think it stinks. But I guess thats the flipside of a free market economy, everyone's looking to make that extra buck. Later.
Waethorn
on Sep 3, 2008
"If they had a hardware [hard drive] failure of the boot drive, would the 2nd drive automatically boot?" Only if it's a mechanical failure in a single drive. In a RAID mirror (RAID 1), BOTH drives would technically be booting while under normal operations. Read and write stages are synchronized across both disks. That's why you have to have reliable disks of the same manufacturer, model, and ideally, the same build lot. ALWAYS keep a separate file-based backup. Don't rely on bit-for-bit (ie. disk/volume-based) backups as errors can replicate much more easily that way.
DRWAM
on Sep 3, 2008
Thanks Wae. That's what I thought. I just replaced my daughter's 2.7GHz celeron with a 3.2GHz P4 [Norwood since the prescott runs too hot and I was afraid that the stock fan would not suffice]. She's 8 and this show keep her good for a year or two before I buy her a new laptop. I replaced the mobo two years ago when it died, but got a better, cheaper board than letting eMachine butt hump me for $200 for 4 yr old, low end technology. It had an old 815 I think but the 845 cost $35 bucks. Now Wubsy runs fast on his adventure game!
Waethorn
on Sep 4, 2008
"Norwood since the prescott runs too hot and I was afraid that the stock fan would not suffice" You have that the other way around. There's a reason why they got the Prescott up to 3.8GHz with a stock cooling unit.
DRWAM
on Sep 4, 2008
My Prescott was fine in the basement [cooler area] but I got the BSOD when I stuck it in the small computer cubby under my desk. i bought the Thermaltake Silent Tower, then overclocked a tad tofrom 3.4 to 3.51 GHz. I did not know the Norwood were hotter, Hopefully, the stock fan will cool the 3.2GHz. So far she's fine, but there's no temp gauge on the POS eMachine. But at least there was BSOD and it's been on for a while. They do not run any labor intense apps, so maybe I'll get lucky. I guess I should have read up a little on the Norwoods. Dang! I would like to keep it in the [even smaller] computer cubby/hutch in my daughter's desk. Thankfully, fans are cheap, but it's getting close to the same price to buy a new , but modern POS. Just 728 more days to go!
Waethorn
on Sep 4, 2008
"I got the BSOD when I stuck it in the small computer cubby under my desk." In a word: DON'T. Also, Prescott CPU's were the ones that pushed case manufacturers to include side vents. Those vents can't be covered or blocked. Some cases will just ship with a rear fan, but you have to have one or the other. The cases with extendible ducting on the side panel should have the ducting pulled down as far as it can over the stock fan. That said, you don't need anything more than the stock cooling unless your case doesn't have a side vent. If it doesn't, a rear case fan is necessary for higher speeds (3.4 - 3.8GHz models). CPU temps of Prescotts up to 3.2GHz should be in the neighbourhood of 40-60C, but no more. If it is, check for dust in the heatsink and blow it out with a can of electronics-safe compressed air. Also, if your desk cubby hole has a closed back, and only a hole at the bottom for cables, take the back off of it or saw it out. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people that push their tower all the way back so there's less than an inch of exhaust space, and no ventilation, and then complain when their power supply burns out. ....and NEVER close a front door on a cubby hole when the system is on!!! Fans only work well if they can exhaust the hot air. If it's the same old hot air recirculating, the system can have 20 fans and still burn out.

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