'Twas the night before Zune HD...

I don't think Microsoft has done enough here. The lack of an app marketplace at launch is a mistake, IMHO. As the market leader, Apple can afford to have boring evolutionary updates and get away with it; Microsoft cannot.

"Paul just posted this about the new iPods...no insults included." He gets most of it right (except for his weird anti-shuffle jihad. So it's not right for him...whatever). But what Paul (and most other reviewers) fail to note is that the iPod Classic also makes a great portable hard drive. It's more than just a media player for "people with large music collections". There are other ways to put that 160GB to good use. As Paul might say, "just a thought". :-)

Hey Paul, your SUPER SPECIAL AWESOME O'POSSUM REVIEWS are showing me this: -=-=-=-=- The page cannot be found The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable. -=-=-=-=- I'm guessing you started off by reviewing the Zunes web browser?

And if you thought the hardware was inferior, the software is even worse! Nearly a DECADE behind the iPhone and others. "Microsoft's own software for Windows Mobile and the Zune HD is similarly bad. Its mobile version of Internet Explorer still doesn't work despite having been on the market since 1996. What's "new" in the release of the Zune HD is a different version of the mobile IE browser, based not upon the creaky IE 4 engine from 1997 (still delivered in today's Windows Mobile devices), but a mobile version of IE 6, which dates back to 2001. That leaves the Zune HD's browser nearly a decade behind the modern WebKit browsers used in the iPhone, Palm Pre, Android, and modern BlackBerry phones."

UnnDunn, Just curious. If you loved that AppleInsider article, I gues it means you read it. I read it. Are they just "Apply fanboy anti-Zune talking points", or are the points the article makes valid? If anyone else read that article, is there anything in there (besides the anti-MS bias) that can be disputed? Are they really just "Apple fanboy anti-Zune talking points", or is there something to consider in the points that are made?

It's funny to see iFanatics descending in hordes to discredit an "also ran" mp3 player. I'm sure there are a lot of moderate Mac fans out there, but they're probably the ones who wouldn't visit sites with a Windows focus, such as this one.

Shark, Or maybe there are some "moderate Mac fans" that are also "Windows fans", or maybe they are just "general technology fans" Why do you need to label everyone?

Shark loves labels. I would say 30% of his posts are labeling.

Will Somebody wake Paul up and tell him his Zune HD review page isnt accessible.

rr0de, I know there is bias in that appleinsider article. There are also statements that are NOT biased that are presented as fact. I am asking whether or not those facts are true, and if so, are there any.... "implications" regarding the Zune HD. A few weeks ago Mike Galos was touting how great the Zune HD is because of the OLED screen and Tegra chips. That article calls his points into question. Are the questions those points raise valid legitimate questions? Isn't that the kind of discussion everyone says they want on this board?! I am asking a very real question that I am interested in hearing the answer to and discussing... Will anyone answer?

@panache: Perhaps the only potentially valid issue the appleinsider article brought up was the speculated lifespan of the OLED screen, and even that was just speculation and theory. Everything else is just the blind rantings of someone who, most likely, has never seen a Zune HD in person and is searching for whatever he can to criticize it with. But the Apple fanboys will eat it up (as seen in this very thread.)

To be clear, it's not that the article factually false... it's just that they make up these overblown "myths" and then take great pleasure "discrediting" them. No-one said Tegra leapfrogs other mobile processors, or that Zune HD delivers mobile HD or high-definition radio or that the apps would be insane (except maybe some delusional Zune fanboys.) And yet they expend great effort and take great pride in "dispelling" those "myths". The truth is Zune HD's display IS significantly brighter and more vivid than other non-OLED PMPs. It IS significantly more responsive and faster than the last-gen iPod Touch (dunno about the new iPod Touch yet.) It DOES deliver 720p HD video when connected to a TV with the HD cradle. HD Radio DOES sound fantastic on the device; like listening to a 128kbps online radio stream. And there is great potential (as yet unrealized) for the apps to truly shine on the device.

Shark47- I read those sites, but I temper it with a reasonable expectation that they are going to be pro apple, they never claim otherwise. They never claim to be something they are not. Here? hrm. Apple has stated that he liked Apple and uses Apple products, now they are a success they are evil and and need of Anti-trust over-site which is laughable, he loves to trot out the worldwide market share numbers every quarter, abusive bully indeed. Conversely this time last year when various members of this site used the term "disgusting" multiple times and with great vitrol about Apple Camp at an Apple store...but when MS uses a kid to promote Win7 in a commercial Paul cheers about how it is unassailable because it would be mean spirited to talk bad about it or what not... But hey keep channeling the "good vibes" doing the same thing (in essence) that people derided Apple for. Pot meet Kettle.

UnnDunn, Did the author of that AppleInsider article have a point with the DDR1 RAM being an issue?

Dude1313, Using a child in a commercial to advertise for MS is most definitely not the same thing as taking a class trip to an Apple store. They are so different as to not even be comparable.

"Did the author of that AppleInsider article have a point with the DDR1 RAM being an issue?" Or that Windows CE cant use multicore? Or the FACT that the Zune screen has 18% less pixels. If your going to view most of the video content on these devices on its own screen would not want the better screen? FACTS suck if they don't backup your side of the story.

@panache1023: Maybe the DDR1 RAM will be an issue, maybe not. It depends on how far Microsoft wants to take the gaming angle. In any case, it is an issue that will never affect end-users, and as such is almost entirely irrelevant to the discussion. I mean, it's an interesting data-point, and if Microsoft decides to open up the Zune app ecosystem, it may prove somewhat limiting for game developers at some indeterminate future point, but seriously? No-one cares except Apple fanboys trying to hate on the Zune.

Tegra APX 2600 with 2 x ARM 11 Cores for the Zune HD, vice one (Apple) and a scheduler that is something of a miracle in itself. (Vice Apple's lack of multi-tasking). In every regard, the Zune HD crushes iTouch technically. Programmable shaders, OpenGL.. XNA games. Unified apps store ships on the 6th of Oct, 2009 with WinMo 6.5 - one unified store. Example apps and games are shipping now and they look gorgeous on the very BRIGHT OLED screen - so much for dim light issues.... Unified Zune/Xbox 360 media marketplace, where one may BUY HD movies and TV - the Xbox is the key point here - being able to access many Zune libraries over the network - obviating the smallish size of Xbox's HDD. Much more in a little while - for now... it's back to work.

"being able to access many Zune libraries over the network - obviating the smallish size of Xbox's HDD." A massive failure of MS and the Xbox. I upgraded my PS3 drive in 5min, slapping in a 320gig notebook for $80. I can stream to my PS3 from Windows or OS X, or just copy tons of data to it.

"I know that WinMO can do some of that" Windows Mobile does all of that - with Bing (it's an application that has everything you mentioned in it). Bing is revision 3 of the same Live Search application that has been on Windows Mobile devices since before the iPhone launched. As far as the "HD" video out feature: the idea is that you can rent or buy an HD video on the Zune video service on your Xbox, and transfer it to your device without waiting for a transcoded version. If you're at somebody else's house, just hook up your Zune HD dock and you're good to go. Why is that a bad thing? It's certainly still better than Apple's offerings - you need an Apple TV in order to get HD stuff from the iTunes store on an HDTV. The Zune HD on the other hand, becomes a portable HD storage device THAT ALSO allows you to play those same video on the screen. Oh, and the reason it's "less pixels"? Because it's a true 16:9 aspect ratio screen, similar to the PSP. 480x360 isn't, so you're wasting pixels for nothing. If you outputted that same video via TV out, depending on how the video was created for the iPod, you'd either have pixels that were cropped, a picture that was squished, or when you play it back on the portable, you'd have letterboxing. Also, the author of the article is clueless, because he doesn't have a clue about Windows Mobile. IE6 for Windows Mobile is not the desktop version of IE6 on Windows Mobile. Sorry, but that's just a sadistic wet dream of a Mackie that doesn't know any better. Windows Mobile runs the software for Zunes, runs PDA's, barcode scanners, tablet and embedded computers, and yes, of course, phones. Oh, and the infamous Quake 3 video? Try doing that on an iPhone with anisotropic filtering and antialiasing - it ain't happenin'. The Quake 3 build for Tegra was only recompiled using stock source code, not heavily optimized, which is the case for the iPhone build. The textures just look plain awful on the iPhone.

Anyone else having problems installing Zune 4 software? I am trying to install the 64-bit version on top of the previous release (on Vista Ultimate). It finished the "Downloading Updates" stage (shows 100% complete) and now its just sitting there doing nothing. I cancelled it once and restarted and get the same result. I even cancelled it again, rebooted and tried it again only to get the same result. Ideas?

@panache1023: The point is many of these arguments, from BOTH fanboy camps, are ultimately useless chest-beating. They are nice to know, but they aren't relevant. No end-user really cares about Tegra, or OLED or DDR1 or whether WinMo does multitasking. What end-users care about is the user-experience, what features the device and software have and how well they are implemented. To me, Zune HD as a PMP crushes iPod Touch. It's not even a question. But not merely because it has OLED or Tegra, but because it brings them all together into a compelling device that fits my lifestyle.

@rlcronin, Open your existing 3.1 Zune software. Go to settings. You will default on the software area. Go to general. Click teh button to check for updates and apply the updates "inside" the Zune software itself. The application update process will take about two minutes. @rr0de74@live.com, do you really want to get into this about gaming? Do you understand what teh Zune HD's programmable pixel shader means? Do you recall what that meant to 3D gaming in general when the ATi 9700 Pro came out? Do you know how large and diverse the XNA games marketplace is and what to expect in this context? In general, do you really want to have a conversation facing Microsoft gaming against Apple gaming? PC, Xbox 360, XNA a unified games and SW marketplace and now a multi-core Zune HD with programmable pixel shaders. How about multi-player and "Live" gaming? Do you really want to step into this one? C'mon man. There's plenty to be critical of Microsoft about. There's plenty to praise Apple about. I just don't think that right now and in the context of where "gaming" is headed on this thing you want to go on the record in this way... up to you... I'll be here.

"To me, Zune HD as a PMP crushes iPod Touch. It's not even a question. But not merely because it has OLED or Tegra, but because it brings them all together into a compelling device that fits my lifestyle." I call "fanboi" on that remark. As "Alanm999" might say: "Have you actually used a Zune HD, compared it side by side to an iPod Touch? No?"

"In general, do you really want to have a conversation facing Microsoft gaming against Apple gaming? PC, Xbox 360, XNA a unified games and SW marketplace and now a multi-core Zune HD with programmable pixel shaders." Sure why not. I see and understand all that you say there. Then there is the factor of MS actually making that happen, getting developers on board. I have been reading about Zune media/360/gaming integration since the Zune shipped. Meanwhile the iPhone/iTouch game develop and list of games keep increasing daily. The Zune will have to be a hit, before game developers start producing games for it.