Why Internet Explorer 8 disappoints web developers

Jake Goldman has written up a lengthy post using three examples of how Microsoft continues to disappoint web developers with IE 8. I think this is an important part of the overall discussion around this browser, and about browsers in general, and of course the wider uber-topic under which it all sits, our inevitable migration to cloud computing. I've given IE 8 a very positive review, something I was pretty sure wouldn't happen as recently as two or three months ago, but in using the browser over a long period of time, I've come around to the notion that IE 8's security/privacy and "beyond the page" (Microsoft's phrase) features will make a much bigger difference to users (real users with real concerns, that is, not people concerned with niche side topics like the Acid3 test or whatever) than various technical failings (or its performance, though I think that's an important concern as well).

None of that should take away from the message of this post, however, which seeks to develop "a deeper understanding of the strategic, cost, and technical significance" of IE 8. Again, it's a topic worthy of debate.

When it comes to the modern browsers (IE7+, Fx2+, Safari 3+), web developers mostly cater to the lowest common denominator. For example, Safari supports on the fly rendering of font shadows, but IE7 and Firefox 3 do not ... The most infamous example of design / browser trade off is font type, which we’ll discuss in our examples.

Alternatively, developers can write alternative code based on the user’s browser. With the “modern” browsers, there are only a few reasons to do this (at least for capable developers) ... In the case of one IE6, however, there are so many inconsistencies and glitches that almost every site we develop has a special stylesheet only for IE6 users. It goes without saying that this adds time (=cost).

The “half way” is not so much a way of addressing the differences as it is a way of accepting the differences. That is, the notion of “failing gracefully.” The idea here is that if a browser like IE6 simply can’t support a non-critical feature (a “nicety”) without significant additional cost and effort, we may elect to leave a feature out.

Goldman then supplies three very specific examples of where IE 8 falls short.

One is CSS-based rounded corners, "a feature that can be added very quickly and easily in current versions of all major web browsers except IE8 and earlier." I note that this feature requires "browser specific versions of the border radius property" for Mozilla, KHTML, and WebKit, but whatever. IE renders the graphical box corners as non-rounded.

The second involves fonts. He notes that there is "a new style property, @font-face, that will allow developers to support almost any font type in the future." It's not fully supported in any shipping browser, however. It works somewhat with Safari 3 and will apparently work fully in Safari 4 (now out in very early beta) and in Firefox 3.5 (now in Beta 3).

The third issue involves opacity, or "support for translucent / semi-transparent / opaque / whatever-you-want-to-call-it elements, particularly backgrounds." Today, "the latest stable version of Safari [Safari 3? Or is Safari 4 the latest 'stable' version? --Paul], and the forthcoming release of Firefox 3.5 would make semi-transparent backgrounds even easier with support for a 'RGBA' (or 'Red/Green/Blue/Alpha') value for the background property." It's not supported in IE 8.

OK. Obviously, there are many more examples, presumably some of which relate to every other browser on the market aside from IE. (Which, by the way, still controls about 70 percent usage share.) The main argument seems to boil down to this:

With serious competition from Firefox, Apple’s Safari, and now even Google with Chrome, there was hope that Microsoft would be far more aggressive with IE8. The hope was that this aggressiveness would push the browser makers to standards oneupmanship (which we are getting from Apple and Mozilla), resulting in platforms and market share that, 2 years from now, would erase many of the obstacles web developers face in pushing design and development value to their limits.

So, what he's not taking into account here is the unbelievably aggressive change Microsoft actually is making, and asking its one billion customers to make, with moving to an on-by-default, standards-rendering mode with IE 8. This is going to be a huge issue for millions of people, far more people than will ever be affected by the picayune little web development issues he raises here. While I wish on some vague level that Microsoft would "adopt web standards fully," the truth is that life is more complicated than what he's presenting here.

And let's face it. Who really cares how hard life is for a small group of people (web developers)? Do your job, for crying out loud.

(In interests of fairness, just raising this issue is of course part of doing the job. But there is a "blame Microsoft" mentality that's so easy to fall into. Where is the praise for moving so aggressively towards web standards?)

I do agree that Microsoft needs to push out IE updates more quickly than with the next major browser release (IE 9?). And maybe now that Microsoft has finally made the first tortuous step, it can gauge reactions and then start delivering those updates (to CSS, HTML, whatever) once the dust settles.

There's a lot to think about here, and I don't want anyone to believe I'm dispensing with this as an issue. I'm not. This is worthy of thought and debate. But let's not forget that to the average user, and that's most of them, IE 8 is a huge step forward. It's not as big of as step as it could be if Microsoft didn't have all those existing customers to worry about. That, as in many things Microsoft, is always the central issue when it comes to forward-looking innovation attempts.

Discuss this Article 37

jakemgold
on Mar 23, 2009
Paul, I really appreciate the feedback and input. A link to our original post would have been appreciated: http://www.cmurrayconsulting.com/design-creative/ie8-disappointments-exa... I may write another post later today, and will trackback to here, with some thoughts on this. In the mean time, a few quick points: "I note that this feature requires "browser specific versions of the border radius property" for Mozilla, KHTML, and WebKit, but whatever. IE renders the graphical box corners as non-rounded." The browser specific properties is actually for older versions of those browsers, that have long supported an non-standards version of the property. I would be perfectly happy if IE8 would give us even a non-standards based way of doing this. When I refer to the latest "stable" build of a browser, I'm referring to non-beta versions (Safari 3.2). "presumably some of which relate to every other browser on the market aside from IE" The sad thing is, not really, at least insofar as the basic / long established attributes we're really craving. "what he's not taking into account here is the unbelievably aggressive change Microsoft actually is making, and asking its one billion customers to make, with moving to an on-by-default, standards-rendering mode with IE 8" Paul, when Microsoft was aggressively challenging Netscape (which, like IE today, used to be the dominant player), they not only met all of the key standards, they beat them and expanded on them. And that was coming from a joke of a browser called IE2. Are you really going to tell me that a corporation the size of Microsoft, with an investment in web and the "cloud" as the future, can't keep up with the open source crowd behind Firefox or WebKit? That such an expectation would be "unbelievably" aggressive? I applaud Microsoft's shift to better standards compliance. Note that I didn't say anywhere that IE8 was a terrible browser, or worse than IE7. It's not. It's just a big *disappointment*. The truth is, at least on the *surface*, IE8 is only marginally better in the standards compliance area than IE7. Like you, I hope that there's some bigger "re-architecting" under the hood, such that IE8 resembles a turning point and standards support will only improve. It's easy to dismiss some of the potential great features as being in beta versions of Firefox and Safari, but the truth is that those will (probably) be out within 6 months, and their users will upgrade quickly. If history is any indicator, IE won't get an upgrade (beyond bug fixes and security patches) for another 2 years. As I mention in the article, if Microsoft uses the new IE8 engine as an opportunity to build upon quickly (IE 8.1), no one will cheer louder than me. This isn't "blame Microsoft" syndrome... I want another aggressive competitor. "Who really cares how hard life is for a small group of people (web developers)? Do your job, for crying out loud." Come on, Paul. Are you really dismissing the importance of keeping "developers! developers! developers!" happy with their products? You constantly remark upon how great innovation has been in the web space, and yet you don't see the importance of giving web developers platforms that make new features possible or basic features easier to implement? Again, thanks for the response! Jake Goldman
mog0
on Mar 23, 2009
Just to add a bit of balance, the "Web Standards" talked about here aren't yet standards. They are all work in progress. What microsoft have attempted is to fully implement CSS2.1, the latest version of the standard. All of the stuff above are from the draft CSS3 spec. This is subject to change. The worst thing possible is for a major browser to implement something that differs from the spec. That is much more difficult to deal with than not implementing at all. I think that microsoft are taking the right approach here but do think that the W3C should be faster finalising the specs so that they can be implemented properly by all. Hopefully they will be finalised in time for IE9
mikegalos@msn.com
on Mar 23, 2009
mog0 Precisely. Now add in the lack of official test suites, competing standards and a vocal ABM faction that says "however (insert non-Microsoft product) implements a vaguely written 'standard' is the way it must be implemented no matter what the docs say" and you get a lot of why "standards compliant" is so non-standard these days.
jakemgold
on Mar 23, 2009
mog0, Fair point, but much of the CSS3 spec are (is?) pretty much defacto standard. There's not really any question as to whether border-radius and opacity (as examples) will be ratified. Let's all agree to hope for IE 8.1....
mdsharpe
on Mar 23, 2009
My main web development problem so far with IE8 is how it has a habit of automatically switching to compatability mode when it encounters some unnamed mystery problem. This is pretty frustrating behaviour, I haven't found a way to disable it, and you have to click the broken page button to switch the browser back to IE8 mode again. My other main complaint about IE8 is how there's no way to make it remember that you want Inprivate Filtering enabled.
clindhartsen
on Mar 23, 2009
Microsoft supposedly has already made a minor note about another browser already in the pipeline, I believe, so you can be sure the newer CSS draft items may drift into the engine. On that note though, it seems like a fair point that Microsoft would not want to delve into a draft standard since that would leave many to attack why all these other parts of the standard don't work, or if something in the draft changes before finalized. Partial support could leave developers more confused when the standard becomes that, a standard, then leaving it out and letting them know it doesn't exist in the engine.
Ocean
on Mar 23, 2009
>>Just to add a bit of balance, the "Web Standards" talked about here aren't yet standards. They are all work in progress.<< If it's widely in use, it's a standard. Once again, it's the users at fault, eh?
Ocean
on Mar 23, 2009
Let’s recall what was said about SpiralFrog back in 2006. Paul Thurrott: In a slap at market leader Apple, songs downloaded from SpiralFrog won’t work with iTunes or the iPod. The songs will, however, work just fine in Microsoft’s Windows Media Player (WMP) and any Microsoft-compatible PlaysForSure device, including Media Center PCs and Windows Mobile-powered Portable Media Centers. That was quite a hurtful slap. http://daringfireball.net/
mikegalos@msn.com
on Mar 23, 2009
jake "much of the CSS3 spec are (is?) pretty much defacto standard" And that's precisely the problem. By any realistic measure of "de facto standards", the clear "de facto standard" for years was IE 6. And, apparently, at the time, there was a demand for "de jure standards" instead. Which IE 8 addresses quite well. So, are you saying that the industry go with supporting "de facto standards" or not?
shark47
on Mar 23, 2009
"If it's widely in use, it's a standard." That means IE should be the standard.
Ocean
on Mar 23, 2009
An application /= a standard. But essentially, you're right.
jakemgold
on Mar 23, 2009
Mike, First off, for years, we web developers *did* practically build to IE6 because it was a de facto standard. Since than, the web has come a long way in a short period. The maturity and growth of any platform (like HTML/CSS) depends upon different interfaces (web browsers) adopting support for the same feature set. The reduction in development time to support the broadest possible audience has real economy of scale implications (just like the de facto emergence of Windows as a software paltform). Much of CSS3 is also practically de jure; its drafted by the W3C, and there's no question as to whether most of the properties will be ratified. It's like saying Cisco shouldn't build support for "N" routers today because they're not technically ratified.
mdsharpe
on Mar 23, 2009
I think the key thing to bear in mind here is that "web standards" are standards which are designed and specified and agreed upon and provide a clear way to proceed which benefits everyone. Working in this way has benefits over just muddling onwards with whatever's at hand.
SPiotr
on Mar 23, 2009
So, when IE8 is accused of being slower than other browsers...... the response is...... speed is not that important and the speed tests are ... the wrong tests. When IE8 is less web standards compliant ...... the response is..... it's better than IE7 and anyways the standards are ... the wrong standards.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Mar 23, 2009
Jake All of which still comes down to either de facto standards count or they don't. There's no such thing as "practically de jure". While a standard may be likely to be ratified, saying that's the same as it beig the standard is like saying we should arrest people for violating bills are being discussed in a House Committee because they're "practically the law". If de facto "standards" do count then IE 6 was the de facto "standard" and FireFox et al were wildly non-compliant and should have been fixed to come into compliance with those "standards". If de facto "standards" don't count and we should only care about de jure standards then your complaints about IE 8 not meeting "standards" that haven't been ratified are meaningless at best and damaging to the goal of de jure standards at worst. It's a case of picking a philosophy of standards and sticking with it no matter where any specific product falls.
Nickelgreen
on Mar 23, 2009
Maybe you don't know/consider that the Acid3 test is only a wishlist of things and not actually used standards. For second argument I use, as a web designer, 3 browsers: IE8, Firefox, Chrome. The important thing is that IE8 is css2 compliant and, as a matter of fact it is. I don't give a damn about developers tweaks and wishlists of javascipts or whatsoever. Claiming that IE8 is not standard compliant, while contemporary creating javascript code or css tags using ONLY other rendering from other browsers is exactly the same thing as writing for IE5 in year 2000. If this is the procedure, why complaining about standards if these people always uses turnarounds which are present in other browsers' rendering machines that ARE NOT standard and DO NOTeven represent a SOLID portion of the market? Can these people please face the deep hypocricy of their compliants? I havemy doubts becaus I see too much ideology which has its roots deeply in 1998. As for me, I'm living in year 2009. 11 years have passed since 1998. Wake up developers. Some brainwashing by reverse is all you need.
chuckb84
on Mar 23, 2009
Argh. The casual dismissal of standards compliance as "niche side topics like the Acid3 test" is PRECISELY what got us into the current mess. Microsoft KNOWINGLY started and continues non-standard browser behavior in an attempt to perpetuate browser lockin. It's evil. They still don't get it. I hope the EU bings them for another 1B Euros.
anonymous
on Mar 23, 2009
Why Internet Explorer 8 disappoints web developers
jakemgold
on Mar 23, 2009
Mike, "All of which still comes down to either de facto standards count or they don't. There's no such thing as "practically de jure". While a standard may be likely to be ratified, saying that's the same as it beig the standard is like saying we should arrest people for violating bills are being discussed in a House Committee because they're "practically the law"." Not really. It's more like saying if you're designing a TV, and you know that HDMI 1.4 is going to become an official standard, and your competitors already support it, you should do right by the industry and your customers and support it. "If de facto "standards" do count then IE 6 was the de facto "standard" and FireFox et al were wildly non-compliant and should have been fixed to come into compliance with those "standards"." Firefox et al *did* design their rendering engines to be as compliant as possible with the vast majority of sites, which were built for IE6. Just as IE3 was designed to be as compliant as possible with all the sites designed for Netscape 3. And the W3C adopted many proposed standards implemented by both IE and Netscape during the real competitive period. Let's make an important distinction here. I'd have no problem with Microsoft taking all of the standards and "extending" them with their own proposed standards. That how we originally got web browser innovation in the Netscape 4 and IE4 days. The issue is that Microsoft is lagging behind, and now holding us back. Did Microsoft *add* anything new or innovative, from a development perspective, with IE8? No, they played catch up, and didn't catch up enough. Remember when they're model was "embrace and extend"? In the case of IE8 it seems to be "attempt to catch up and bundle with Windows". Mike, why are you so protective of IE8? Tell me, if Microsoft had gone further and embraced the CSS3 draft, adding support for things like "opacity" (long supported in Firefox and WebKit), would you be criticizing them for embracing de jure standards? Would you be arguing that its a worse browser for it? Can you think of one thing to criticize Microsoft for? Are they incapable of doing wrong in your eyes?
jakemgold
on Mar 23, 2009
"If this is the procedure, why complaining about standards if these people always uses turnarounds which are present in other browsers' rendering machines that ARE NOT standard and DO NOTeven represent a SOLID portion of the market? Can these people please face the deep hypocricy of their compliants? I havemy doubts becaus I see too much ideology which has its roots deeply in 1998. As for me, I'm living in year 2009. 11 years have passed since 1998. Wake up developers. Some brainwashing by reverse is all you need." Nickel - that's ridiculous. Your view is that we should all be grateful for whatever the *present* market leader throws us, even it frustrates us? Do you also think that iPhone developers should stop whining about the approval process and just say "thank you Apple"? Please back up where exactly I'm being "hypocritical" by trying to push Microsoft to help us take web development up to the next level.
tayme
on Mar 23, 2009
@Jake - "Mike, why are you so protective of IE8?" mikegalos is well known on Paul's sites for being the ultimate Microsoft evangelist...for him, it is all Microsoft, all the time...just as for some other regulars here, like robertsjoe and chuckb84; it is all Apple, all the time. Its really kind of sad when people put those type of blinders on and refuse to see the good that both companies can offer. Good luck convincing any of them otherwise, though. But, the majority of the world knows that neither MS or Apple is all evil or all good. --tayme
jakemgold
on Mar 23, 2009
Tayme, Ah, I believe that's known as "fanboy-ism". You're absolutely right, of course. What I hope they can realize is that "allegiance" to a brand doesn't result in better products or results. Serious competition, does.
DigDug
on Mar 23, 2009
One of the great things about CSS based design is that there are usually fallbacks for these things. Your browser doesn't support the font that's sent, it falls back to another font or the default. Your browser doesn't support rounded corners, it doesn't have rounded corners. Colors seem the hardest thing to make fall back well. That said, I'd love IE8 to support some of these things. It doesn't. From the layout talks I've seen IE9 probably will support almost everything mentioned in this report (fonts excepted maybe? because there still a lot of arguing about the best way to keep things "open" while keeping font property rights safe. That spec is definitely not stable). I wouldn't even be surprised, given Silverlight 3's support of 3D transforms, if IE9 supports them along with all the fun little video, audio, and canvas elements that people are excited about. Given that MS felt there had to be a choice made between good CSS2.1 support of half-ass CSS2.1 + some CSS3 things that seem stable (and that argument is purely academic at some point, but layout apparently had to have a major rewrite just to get CSS2.1 support), it was the definitely the better of the choices.
PatriotB6007
on Mar 23, 2009
DigDug -- interesting that you brought up the video and audio elements. Microsoft supported video and audio elements back in 1999 via integrating the SML standard into HTML in a project called HTML+TIME. It didn't get much usage at the time however. Then 5-10 years later the non-MS browser crowd decided "hey we want video and audio elemenets" but than take/build on what was already out there (which itself was based on SMIL) they came up with something completely different. If you look at all the stuff you could do in IE in 1999 it's a shame that so much of it was ahead of its time: - filters+transitions (some of which are in SVG, some of which are in Apple's new CSS properties). Funny how Paul mentioned text-shadow because you can do text shadowing through filters. MS's fault here is not keeping up the momentum and improving filters beyond their initial implementation. - HTML+TIME (media elements, declarative animations) - VML (available years before SVG) - DirectAnimation (2D and 3D graphics, script-based animations). Unfortunately DirectAnimation is long dead which is a shame because it is still ahead of anything the other browser vendors have to offer 10 years later.
WebGuy3000
on Mar 23, 2009
As easy as it it to get excited about cool CSS3 stuff like rounded corners, RGBA, and drop shadow, the sad reality is that since IE6 still accounts for about 20% of the traffic to my company's website, I don't even bother using transparent PNG images in my designs, much less getting fancy with newer elements. And sadly I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future.
jakemgold
on Mar 23, 2009
WebGuy- My original article basically makes the same point. It concludes by saying IE8 isn't so much a disappointment insofar as its impact "today", but where we should be 2 years from now. Unless MS improves on their 2+ year development life cycle for IE, as Paul and I agree, they should.
bettieblu
on Mar 23, 2009
Its pure catch up with IE8. Something Paul had no problem pointing out for the iPhone 3.0, even though it introduced 1000 new API's Transparency, rounder corners = basic competivie features these days. If IE8 cant do it then they need to. The internet is the information hub of.....well everything. Your interface to that hub is web pages. With news papers closing down left and right its even more important today. That whole 1 billion Windows PC argument is so lame. How many of those 1 billion Windows PC's run point of sale software on a register that never uses a browser? Or many other 1 application devices that have not been moved to a striped down single purpose linux OS yet? IE8 is ok, its NOT faster than FF or Safari IMHO, and I agree with Paul, I dont care if its ACID 3 compatible. I want speed, looks (ie transparency/rounded corners) and compatibility. If I dont get them from IE8, thankfully I have options.
Raf
on Mar 23, 2009
Jake, Going into your article, I was so sure you were just another web developer bitching about bleeding features not present in Internet Explorer... but refreshingly, I was wrong. I think we can all agree Internet Explorer 8 is a big step in the right direction in terms of standards support, but 2 years from now, like you mentioned, it'll be around -- stifling innovation. Yet again. That said, word is Microsoft will be trashing Trident and going either Webkit or Mozilla. Hard to swallow right now, I know. We'll just have to wait and see.
Cfischer83
on Mar 23, 2009
Jake, as a web developer who considers himself a "Windows fan-boy" (see my icon), I completely agree with you! First, I'm extremely happy that as far as positioning, z-index, paddings, margins etc. IE8 is fully up to standards, but it's easy for Paul to say "just do your job" when it's not his job ;) Coding to the lowest common denominator, and removing useful features is something I have to do everyday. I recently created http://theholeinourgospel.com (still a work in progress) and it took two weeks to make PLUS one additional 40 hour week reserved completely for IE bug fixes simply because we didn't want to remove features because IE didn't support them. This is very expensive for my organization, and I don't think non-developers like Paul realize this. I will be celebrating the day IE6 has low enough usage that I don't have to support it anymore!!
Waethorn
on Mar 23, 2009
It took forever for other web browsers to support inline-block properly. IE7 had it first. That's all I'm going to say on the matter.
jakemgold
on Mar 23, 2009
Raf / cfischer, Really appreciate the feedback. Well said. PS - Raf, love the website.
Waethorn
on Mar 23, 2009
"it's easy for Paul to say "just do your job" when it's not his job" It's also easy for Paul to say "use the cloud" when he doesn't have real-world paying business clients to support that tell him to F*#& himself when he says that to them. Those clients need local storage. Sometimes they're even regulated to have it, and SBS is a good option for those small business customers, and it still costs less than hosted services (at the end of a contract, you have nothing to show for cloud computing). Many SBS customers have their systems for longer than 6 years. Oh, and BTW: the "slimmed-down Windows Server 2008 OS that's even 'lighter' than SBS" that you've been looking for is called "Windows Server 2008 for Essential Server Solutions", or just "Windows Server 2008 FE". It's Windows Server 2008 Standard but has a limit of 15 CAL's and most other domain restrictions as SBS. I don't believe it has an SBS-style console though. It can act as a DC.
Waethorn
on Mar 23, 2009
@mikegalos: Check your inbox.
trieste
on Mar 23, 2009
I want to thank Jake Goldman for writing these comments defending and expanding on his article. It's a pity that this is something Paul seems generally unwilling to do. He works on the 'ignite fuze and stand well back' principle.
bettieblu
on Mar 23, 2009
'ignite fuze and stand well back'.....and drive clicks/hits. Vista Secrets probably is not the revenue driver he thought it would be:)
subzerohitman721
on Mar 23, 2009
I have to agree with Mr. Goldman here. Complacency is the enemy of true innovation. If you're not looking to tackle the next major standard, then what the heck are you doing? The reason browsing stagnated was that nobody wanted to challenge Microsoft. It comes to my point. If your "__________"(insert web browser development company), yet you see new standards coming up, yet you don't do implement them, are you essentially caving to MIcrosoft? Any company or corporation that waits for another to do something, has got a fundamentally bad development plan. Yes, this can be applied to Microsoft and many other companies too. It was that mentality that lead to browser development stalling. Mozilla did wise up and pushed ahead with development. Thanks to Mozilla, we're seeing a browser renaissance with Google Chrome, Safari, and Opera to a much lesser extent. The latest IE represents Microsoft finally waking up from the development slumber and bring the browser to current standard's. The challenge isn't just to keep the browser's current, but to stay ahead of the curve so that developers can bring the next set of web innovation to the masses. However, de facto standards change when they actually become standardized. Just look at what's happening with the wireless N specs. Its approaching standardization, and many of the draft wireless N routers & recievers might be left in the cold. How is that fair for the consumer whose pumped all ths money into hardware that might be left in the dust? Yet they were told at the time of sale that this was going to be the future? The same is true of web standards. It sounds good and wonderful before it become standard. Everyone jumps on the draft specs. Then when it is standardized and the pre-standard versions are not in compliance, you've got to go back do 1 of 3 options. Fix it, take it out, or start over. So I'm trying to have some sympathy because its easy to say and much harder to keep up with all these technical standards everyone wants. I'm just glad we've gotten far beyond IE 6. My major concern is security, because so many hundreds of thousands of websites are being hijacked with malware, trojans, rootkits, and other compromising tools. Before we even talk standards, how about getting these websites secure and cleaned up? These guys figured the OS is getting harder to tackle, but applications and websites are open season.
mdsharpe
on Mar 23, 2009
Just to add one more point, The javascript debugger seems just as irritating as it was in the release candidate. For example, after having the debugger open for a while, it becomes impossible to add new breakpoints without the UI totally spazzing out and adding breakpoints on the wrong lines. You have to stop/start debugging to fix this behaviour.

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