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Windows 7 Question of the Year, Answered? (No. Updated.)

Oct. 22, 2009 Paul Thurrott | Paul Thurrott's Supersite for Windows

I've gotten a number of emails from people who received an Upgrade version of Windows 7 in the mail and installed it on a new or formatted PC without having to resort to any tricks (like the Vista-era "install it twice" hack). If true, this does of course answer the number one remaining question about Windows 7: How do you do a clean install with Upgrade media? Apparently, with no effort at all. I will test this as soon as possible of course, but it's a very busy day so I'm not sure when I'll be able to get to it. In the meantime, it looks like we're getting some good news here.

If you have done a clean install with Windows 7 Upgrade media (i.e. there is no other OS installed on the PC at the time), please post here and let everyone know.

UPDATE: I tried this type of install in a VM and it did not work. Based on the error message I got, the Vista-era rules apply. That is, you'll have to do a stupid "install it twice" workaround as described above. Sigh.

Discuss this Article 108

scotters783
on Oct 22, 2009
@Waethorn And you're probably right about performance. It probably does work just as well. I'm just clarifying by what Paul means in this post. The big mystery is can you do a true clean install, and start with a wiped out drive and use an upgrade key to activate Windows 7. And if so, how DOES it then know you had a previous OS installed? Does it ask for a previous OS Key? Does it ask to enter a previous disc like in the past? Or does it just work, trusting your loyalty? Right now, no one knows that answer. Unfourtunately no one has posted their experience yet who has indeed activated a copy of Windows 7 with an upgrade Key doing a clean install from boot. I have the media, but... unfourtantely have to wait till tomorrow to find out, as I want to back up my things to my external drive and it's at home while I'm out of town :-)
Waethorn
on Oct 22, 2009
"that all sounds great and all but what happens a year from now when someone wants to use a brand new HD (and does not want to clone the old install) ? I'm pretty sure the RC won't be activating forever." No, but you should already have an OEM installation with that computer, or else that gives you plenty of time to order discs from your OEM. Similarly, the Family Pack and most of these sales are only for a limited time too. "But when Paul says clean install, he means reformatting the drive before installing Windows 7." No, no. What he's talking about is not migrating the cruft of the old Windows over into the new one. That's what causes Windows instabilities and performance issues later, because old programs and drivers that Windows Setup doesn't recognize properly can cause crashing and general nonsense after the upgrade. That has nothing to do with reformatting your drive at all. Files that aren't referenced by the running Windows installation don't affect performance or stability whatsoever. It's like if you have a Trojan that's sitting on your hard drive and you never actually launch it. It won't do any harm until you actually click to launch it, or there's something scripted to launch it automatically, and in the case of Windows, it won't touch anything in Windows.old. Now if you want to talk about refreshing sectors of your hard drive, that's a different story altogether. Either use Spinrite, or perform a long format of the drive. Windows Setup, since Windows Vista, only does a quick format, which only wipes out the MFT on NTFS drives, or the FAT on FAT-formatted drives. If you want to do a long format during setup, you have to hit Shift-F10, and run diskpart from a commandline before choosing the drive. That's not something any regular end-user should do either. Spinrite is non-destructive, so that's a better option, and you can do that any time you want regardless of what is on your drive.
Waethorn
on Oct 22, 2009
"The "family pack" or "Single upgrade" media is exactly the same. There is no key. There is one version." If the install bits are identical, and there is no technical limitations between the versions, then Apple is being more dishonest by charging different prices for the exact same thing. Or else anybody that takes advantage of Apple's loose protection scheme (the "honour system", LOL!) is even worse. Take your pick.
Schlepper
on Oct 22, 2009
I'm glad I read this. I was going to format my drive and do a clean install. My question, can I upgrade from 32 bit Vista to 64 bit Win 7?
Waethorn
on Oct 22, 2009
"The big mystery is can you do a true clean install, and start with a wiped out drive and use an upgrade key to activate Windows 7. And if so, how DOES it then know you had a previous OS installed?" That's why I'll back up the claims that state that upgrades aren't bootable at all. "Unfourtunately no one has posted their experience yet who has indeed activated a copy of Windows 7 with an upgrade Key doing a clean install from boot." Business have already tried the install from certain pieces of VLK media. From what some people in forums are saying, they aren't bootable, so that option isn't possible. I personally can't say for or against that though, since I don't know. I don't expect someone would have a reason to claim otherwise though. "I have the media, but... unfourtantely have to wait till tomorrow to find out, as I want to back up my things to my external drive and it's at home while I'm out of town" All you have to do is try booting from it. If it boots and you can click the "upgrade" option, you can cancel the install before it gets to the drive partitioning screen. It will tell you long before that whether or not it works. If it doesn't boot at all, then you have your answer immediately.
scotters783
on Oct 22, 2009
Good points Waethorn. Though I might argue what Paul means by clean install, which is debatable (maybe not), what he does ask in his post is if you can clean install with upgrade media "without having to resort to any tricks (like the Vista-era "install it twice" hack). There is one answer we know. Yes you can, do a custom install from within Windows as we've discussed. But Paul knows that already, so that can't be what he's asking. He wants to know if you can boot from disc, install outside of Windows with a clean drive and avoid the Vista "install it twice" hack. Funny after all this, Paul does document the Vista "install it twice" hack , but for Windows 7, in his Windows 7 Secrets book.
Waethorn
on Oct 22, 2009
"My question, can I upgrade from 32 bit Vista to 64 bit Win 7?" Custom upgrade install only, but if you have a copy of Windows (XP or higher) that's installed and activated, you qualify for upgrade pricing. The only time you can do an in-place upgrade is if the version matches, ie. Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit to Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit, or say, Windows Vista Business 32-bit to Windows 7 Professional 32-bit (despite the name change). Otherwise you have to do a custom install. It's similar to a clean install, in that you don't have any leftover stuff from the old install, but you still don't have to pay for the full version.
scotters783
on Oct 22, 2009
@Waethorn Booting from disc does work according to Windows 7 Secrets which plushes the new "Windows 7 install it twice" scenario. Though, again I don't have a disc with me either today to burn my ISO to :-P. But I'm assuming you can boot with an upgrade disc, since Paul documents it in Windows 7 Secrets. Good Discussion!
Waethorn
on Oct 22, 2009
"He wants to know if you can boot from disc, install outside of Windows with a clean drive and avoid the Vista "install it twice" hack." You can't do that in the RC, so I'm betting they left that in for the RTM, because people would abuse that by buying upgrade copies instead of full versions when they didn't have a previous OS.
Backup77
on Oct 22, 2009
@waethorn Good post about the Windows 7 upgrade media install instructions. That seems pretty straightforward to me.
ChrisPrefect
on Oct 22, 2009
> You would have a Windows.old folder with all of those files that you could just safely delete. I don't want to do that. I want a CLEAN install; I want to use a brand new SSD for installing Win7. If there was already an OS on the SSD, the performance would be a bit lower. Not much, but clean should be clean and not just "delete the old stuff afterwards". And again: If I ever would have to reinstall my win7 Family Pack, it would be a pain in the ass to install an old system first. What about reinstalling 5 years from now? Will my brand new pc even run WinXP so I can upgrade from there? That is just a bunch of crap Microsoft produced here... Sick marketing-decisions that hurt every legitimate client which pays Microsoft money for the license. That’s not the way a company should threat their customers.
redunion1940
on Oct 22, 2009
Sorry for my ignorance rr0de74@live.com, but I do not use Apple hardware nor do I use Apple software, and since I use an AMD processor getting iDeneb to work on it isn't as easy as the Intel processors, so no I have no experaince on it, but 1 version of Windows will not work for the enviroment it is being released into. If MS released 1 version of windows I would almost gurantee it cost around $300 for Retail and maybe $250 for small OEM's and around $170 for large OEMs like Dell and HP and others, increasing the overall prices of PC's, but with multiple versions MS can have multiple price points and allow OEM's a choice for the version they want and a cheaper price for that version. Apple makes one version because, there is only one MAC producer, APPLE, Apple isn't going to be making money off of its Operating system, because it is recieving almost a 300 to $500 dollar premium on the hardware, not to mention its iPod, and iPhone lines which are also making around 100 to 400 dollars for Apple, so you see Apple could give its OS away for free ans still be making a giant profit. MS is a software company that has some hardware, but most of its money comes from software I.E. Office and Windows.
Backup77
on Oct 22, 2009
@waethorn Would you enter the product key during the Windows 7 upgrade install or leave it blank until completion?
redunion1940
on Oct 22, 2009
I don't know about the new HDD scenario just put it in and use it in raid I would say. , the good thing is, I keep an old XP disc lying around that I can use to upgrade from. As for you I really don't know what to say but be prepared to buy a OEM disc for around 109 for HP or 149 for Pro. Because with OEM disc you can call MS up and say something to the effect my HDD failed can you reissue my code so I can use it again, but I think my HDD should last for another 2 to 3 years, enough time for me to build another machine and buy either Win 7 or Windows ? ( as we have no idea what the new version will be called,.)
redunion1940
on Oct 22, 2009
If you get a new system buy a new OS with it, upgrades are meant for exsisting systems. and as we explained the Windows.old file will not slow down you computer it is litterally just files sitting there doing nothing, it is not a normal upgrade. If you upgrade you just change the current Windows Folder which can cause problems but all your programs are left alone, Custom install takes all that stuff puts it in a folder where the programs won't work any more and you can choose what you want from the folder and then just delete and degrag ChrisPerfect.
redunion1940
on Oct 22, 2009
Backup77, you can use the upgrade install key immediatly no worries there.
Backup77
on Oct 22, 2009
@redunion1940 Thanks for the headsup there.
Delmont
on Oct 22, 2009
Wae, followed your instructions. I'm up and running on RTM. Only odd thing, it cut my hd in 1/2 and created a second partition ???????? There is nothing on the new partition but some system files.... hmmm.......
danieldecker
on Oct 22, 2009
@lotsamystuff Dude, it wasn't 150,000 shares. It was $150 MILLION (about 5.2 Million shares). Do a little Due Diligence before posting.
redunion1940
on Oct 22, 2009
Paul why does Ballmer look so unhappy in that second to last picture there?
EricoF3
on Oct 22, 2009
@danieldecker said: @lotsamystuff Dude, it wasn't 150,000 shares. It was $150 MILLION (about 5.2 Million shares). Do a little Due Diligence before posting. Forget it Daniel, lotsagay is juste a c.o.c.k-s.u.c.k.e.r...
Delmont
on Oct 22, 2009
I mis-spoke. The install, created a 100MB boot partition on my system, but labeled it Drive E. hmmmm......
tayme
on Oct 22, 2009
@EricoF3 - You've taken it a bit too far, don't you think? It's an Operating System....not a person that you are defending. I understand that you were insulted by "lotsamystuff's" posting about your language barrier; but be ther bigger person. Don't stoop to his level. It makes you appear as ignorant as some of the other trolls that congregate here. --tayme
rr0de74@live.com
on Oct 22, 2009
@wae "Or else anybody that takes advantage of Apple's loose protection scheme (the "honour system", LOL!) is even worse." I am betting normal users just dont know until they try. Or dont care because the price is so low. I am sure Apple cares if you are dishonest but then again you can only install it on a Mac. In either case, SL upgrades sales were very good for Apple... http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/10/19/apples_mac_os_x_snow_leopa...
rr0de74@live.com
on Oct 22, 2009
EricaF33....U lotts yure MINde!!!!!
Evox
on Oct 22, 2009
Here's how it worked for me: Win7 Release Candidate was installed on the drive and activated. I booted from the DVD, deleted all of the partitions and installed from upgrade media. On first boot I entered product key and activated. No problem.
Delmont
on Oct 22, 2009
Evox, are you serious? you booted from the upgrade dvd, deleted your partition(s) and did a clean install and activated? Wow.
robertsjoe
on Oct 22, 2009
Three great new Get A Mac ads that put the whole Windows 7 fiasco in to perspective. Some truth coming your way right here: http://movies.apple.com/media/us/mac/getamac/2009/apple-mvp-broken_promi... http://movies.apple.com/media/us/mac/getamac/2009/apple-mvp-teeter_totte... http://movies.apple.com/media/us/mac/getamac/2009/apple-mvp-pc_news-us-2...
ropp29
on Oct 22, 2009
Well, here's how I'm doing it. I downloaded Windows 7 Pro from the DigitalRiver site since I'm a student and got it cheap. Much to my chagrin it wasn't an ISO, and I always install Windows by booting from a disc. So, I converted it to a bootable ISO and burned it to disc. Booted from the disc and did a clean install on a totally wiped hard drive, and everything seemed to go fine. However, when I went to enter the product key it didn't work, and told me it was only valid for upgrades and not clean installs. So, I'm currently trying the "install it twice" Vista method. I'll post again when I find out if it accepts my key or not. And by the way, why do the trolls always feel that they have to go off-topic and turn things into bitter arguments? It's ridiculous. Paul requested this in his post: "If you have done a clean install with Windows 7 Upgrade media (i.e. there is no other OS installed on the PC at the time), please post here and let everyone know." Why can't everyone just stay on topic?
whiplash55
on Oct 22, 2009
Instructions for making student deal into bootable ISO http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/30470-make-bootable-iso-student-d-l...
whiplash55
on Oct 22, 2009
nice try robertsjoe the fiasco was called Snowsomething
evgenij
on Oct 22, 2009
Paul, please ban "Erico" or whatever his name is along with robertsjoe. This is getting ridiculous.
shark47
on Oct 22, 2009
"Three great new Get A Mac ads that put the whole Windows 7 fiasco in to perspective. " Blah! Some more negative ads from Apple. What else is new?
robertsjoe
on Oct 22, 2009
@evgenij: come on now. Erico is insulting and abusive, ban him. I am not down at his level. Be fair.
EricoF3
on Oct 22, 2009
May be sorry....
ropp29
on Oct 22, 2009
The "install-it-twice" method worked! So, the situation seems to be the same as with Vista. I wish they could come up with a better way like just asking for the product key of your old version of Windows.
redunion1940
on Oct 22, 2009
So why would someone want to use a mac because according to that first ad Mac hasn't changed since Nineteen hundred ninty-two, and I'm pretty sure Macs sucked then and if it hasn't changed since they must suck now that is what the AD tells me, as for the 2nd and 3rd one, Apple has it wrong it is really easy to do it.
EricoF3
on Oct 22, 2009
tayme said: @EricoF3 - You've taken it a bit too far, don't you think? It's an Operating System....not a person that you are defending. I understand that you were insulted by "lotsamystuff's" posting about your language barrier; but be ther bigger person. Don't stoop to his level. It makes you appear as ignorant as some of the other trolls that congregate here. --tayme You are right tayme... Sorry to all ... sometime they get me crazy when insulting me just because they have no argument... Sorry to all... except losta...
james3mg
on Oct 22, 2009
ropp29: so, the first install (the key-less one) didn't have to be activated for the upgrade to accept it as valid, after all?
mikegalos@msn.com
on Oct 22, 2009
rr0de "the snow leopard DVD will upgrade anything" Hmmm. Really? Let's compare: Microsoft Windows 2006 OS (Vista) -> 2009 OS (7) - Upgrade or clean install with data and setting migration 2001 OS (XP) -> 2009 OS (7) - Clean install with data and setting migration Apple Mac OS X 2006 OS (10.5 "Leopard") -> 2009 OS (10.6 "Snow Leopard") - Upgrade or clean install 2001 OS (10.1 "Puma") -> 2009 OS (10.6 "Snow Leopard") - Buy a new computer
ropp29
on Oct 22, 2009
@james3mg No, the first install doesn't have to be activated. Once you have that installed, you upgrade it, and the upgrade assumes the first install is legit, even though its not activated. Once it's upgraded you input your product key and it accepts it. If you want more info on this I think Paul, in his post, linked to an old article about it, because people did this same "install it twice" thing to do a clean Vista install with upgrade media.
anonymous
on Oct 22, 2009
This post was mentioned on Twitter by fumo7887: Paul @Thurrott post: "Windows 7 Question of the Year, Answered?" http://bit.ly/2Son7Q
Logjamming
on Oct 22, 2009
This is so f.cking hilarious and so predictable from the outrageous business model chart microsoft uses to have you nitwits pay some more Microsoft-taxes so they can settle EU monopoly lawsuits. It's a Vista service pack: nothing more. And you're paying top dollar for that.
Logjamming
on Oct 22, 2009
@ Galos You're refering to PPC vs Intel. That said, 2001->2007 was perfectly plausible for OSX. In fact, your 2001 machine would run faster on OSX Leopard than on OSX TIger. That has always been a given: newer versions of OSX run faster on the same hardware. The lower limit of hardware requirement will go up, but this has also been the case with Windows. Except for Vista. Which required you spend another 1000 dollars on new hardware because you got tricked by a Vista-capable sticker. Another version of the Microsoft-tax. You not only pay top dollar for numerous versions (Apple uses one that has got everything on it), but you'll also have to pay for new hardware. Vista-capable lawsuit ring a bell? Here's a link: http://www.seattlepi.com/business/352442_vista23.html Oh, how we at Microsoft value our customers....NOT!
jtdennis
on Oct 22, 2009
I've been using the VLK media since it was released in July and I have no idea what y'all are talking about. The VLK media are the full ISOs. I have installed both Win7 Enterprise and Pro from VLK downloads and have never seen a non-bootable version on the volume licensing site.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Oct 23, 2009
log "Apple uses one [version] that has got everything on it" Only to the most fantatic Mac person who truly thinks "If Apple doesn't make it, I shouldn't need it" in which case everything, no matter how lacking, has "everything they need".
de Silentio
on Oct 23, 2009
@Waethorn: "As I mentioned before, people are saying that VLK media is not bootable, and VLK's are upgrades only, so it would stand to reason that the final upgrade versions are not bootable either." The VLK media I have been using is bootable.
Dipsh t Admin
on Oct 23, 2009
Since I was running the 64-bit RC on my laptop, and I knew that I was going to blow it away anyway, I booted to a USB device since I don't have an optical drive on this ultraportable, and ran the custom install with Pro upgrade media/key. Finished in about 20 minutes, and I'm all activated and genuine. RJ, I saw one of those ads, and if you think they are really good, you are insane (well, we knew that anyway). Just like I predicted yesterday, the "actor" Justin Long said almost nothing, and didn't present any facts or solid information. Hodgeman did all of the work and provided absolutely no solid criticism against Windows 7, just a nebulous "we've seen this before" bit. And they took it all the way back to way earlier versions of Windows. Of course, this is a slippery slope for them, since, you know, the later versions of the classic environment were slow and bug ridden
Dipsh t Admin
on Oct 23, 2009
" rr0de74@live.com said: EricaF33....U lotts yure MINde!!!!!" LOL!
lotsamystuff
on Oct 23, 2009
"Do a little Due Diligence before posting" Yep. I deserved that. My math skills are as bad as Homer's English.

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