Windows 7 to feature pervasive multi-touch functionality

After yesterday's bizarre we've-decided-to-communicate-how-we're-going-to-start-communicating-about-Windows-7 silliness, Microsoft finally demonstrates Windows 7 publicly for the first time and shows off a unique new feature: Pervasive multi-touch.

Here are a few resources:

Microsoft Highlights First Unique Windows 7 Feature: Pervasive Multi-Touch
Me, in WinInfo

Microsoft on Tuesday publicly demonstrated Windows 7 for the first time, showing off a new OS feature that will allow users of the upcoming system to control touch screen-based PCs with their fingers. A simplified version of this feature actually exists in Windows Vista today, but Windows 7 will take this functionality to the next level by providing multi-touch capabilities that will work everywhere in the system.

According to Microsoft, touch displays are just part of a movement to evolve how we interact with PCs. "Today almost all [PC] interaction is keyboard-mouse," Microsoft chairman Bill Gates says. "Over years to come, the role of speech, vision, ink--all of those--will be huge."

Demonstrating Windows 7's multi-touch controls, Microsoft corporate vice president Julie Larson-Green showed an electronic version of finger painting called Touchable as well as touch-enable photo organization and mapping applications. She also showed off a virtual piano that played music as she tapped the onscreen keys.

Microsoft isn't alone in its pursuit of multi-touch controls. Apple's vaunted but slow-selling iPhone utilizes multi-touch controls, and a selection of newer MacBook Pro laptops offers limited multi-touch capabilities in certain Mac OS X applications. For Microsoft, however, Windows 7 multi-touch is a chance to leapfrog the competition, and it builds on work the company pioneered in earlier versions of Windows and in its Surface smart table. And as Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer notes, while Apple gets a lot of press for its work, that company plays in a much smaller market. "We'll sell 290 million PCs this year and Apple will sell 10 million PCs," he said in a "do the math" moment. "They're fantastically successful, but so are we."

Microsoft has been very careful to not reveal too much information about Windows 7 because of the debacle that occurred after it over-promised on Windows Vista and then repeatedly delayed the product, all while paring down the feature-set over time. Despite rumors, however, Vista continues to outsell its predecessors, both with consumers and businesses. Yesterday, Microsoft announced that it has sold over 150 million licenses to the OS since it first appeared in late November 2006.

 

Microsoft demonstrates Multi-touch
Windows Vista Blog

For years Microsoft has been investing in many forms of natural input in order to simplify the way people interact with their PC's and devices. The advent of the original Windows graphical user interface forever changed the way people used their PC's. Today, advances in pen and handwriting technology in Windows Vista offers students a natural and intuitive way to capture searchable notes and diagrams in the classroom. Others are using this technology to quietly capture pen based notes during meetings. Speech recognition, something which was once considered science fiction, is enabling many Windows Vista users to see, hear, and use their computers for the very first time.

Touch is quickly becoming a common way of directly interacting with software and devices. Touch-enabled surfaces are popping up everywhere including laptop touch pads, cell phones, remote controls, GPS devices, and more. What becomes even more compelling is when this experience is delivered to the PC -on a wide variety of Windows notebooks, in all-in-one PC's, as well as in external monitors. In working with our broad ecosystem of hardware and software manufactures, we're excited to be showing some of the great work and investments we are working on in Windows 7.

Tonight, Julie Larson-Green showed how a few of the multi-touch innovations first previewed in Surface will ultimately enhance the next version of Windows. A transcript of the demo can be found here: http://d6.allthingsd.com/20080527/gates_ballmer/.

Below is an abridged version of the demo that Julie delivered this evening. Please note, the applications you will see are for demonstration purposes only...but it's all Windows 7 underneath.


Video: Multi-Touch in Windows 7

Some photos from the event:

Discuss this Article 54

fivepoint
on May 28, 2008
Yes, yes... I see the giant iPhone with bad looking software... but where is this "Windows 7" you keep talking about?
fivepoint
on May 28, 2008
"We'll sell 290 million PCs this year and Apple will sell 10 million PCs," he said in a "do the math" moment. "They're fantastically successful, but so are we." Am I missing something? I don't think Microsoft sold a SINGLE computer in 2008. Maybe he means liscenses? Does he realize that Apple makes considerably more $ with each 'PC' sold compared to Microsoft? Ballmer is the sales guy... he should get it.
fivepoint
on May 28, 2008
Also, Paul... I thought that quote was a bit out of context.... I will post what was said right before that: Walt asks Ballmer if he’s worried about the next iteration of Mac OS X, which will likely be released before Windows 7. Is there a risk that the work you’re doing now with multi-touch will look dated when Apple (AAPL) releases its next OS? Ballmer says he’s confident Microsoft will have fantastic Windows 7 PCs, regardless of what Apple’s got on the market. Walt presses him, noting Apple’s recent growth in the PC market. Ballmer notes the difference in scale between the two companies: “We sell 270 millions PCs a year, and Apple sells 10 million. They’re fantastically successful, and so are we.”
lotsamystuff
on May 28, 2008
I love the "Microsoft Windows FingerPaint Special Edition For Microsoft Windows MultiTouch Interface for Windows Vienna/Seven/7". Or whatever they're going to call it. Whenever I see people lusting for a new interface with speech/touch/whatever, I seriously wonder what they're smoking. Do we really want an office full of people talking to their computers? And go ahead...reach out to your screen and just try poking at it for more than fifteen minutes. Now do that all day. My God, you'll need bodybuilder arms to work like that. I'm not saying it's not valuable to research this kind of thing, but if people think that talking and pointing is going to replace keyboarding and mousing for most mainstream computing needs any time soon, they're delusional.
Waethorn
on May 28, 2008
"I see the giant iPhone with bad looking software... " You mean this one?: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ESMaNnjsxw4 "where is this "Windows 7" you keep talking about?" You know, Paul DOES have a link in the article.... On a related note, this epitomizes iPhone users to a tee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ela0U4EzeK0 (NSFW) ....but wait, there's more!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPCxQB6xUQU (just plain funny....makes me NOT want a Mac even more....)
tayme
on May 28, 2008
Paul - you are sure to bring out the Apple fans with this one...heck, fivepoint has already manically blasted you with 3 quick posts...and "lotsamystuff" has already begun his attempts at ludicrously poking fun by making names up for something that was used to demo the touch screen... But, I do have to agree with "lotsa" regarding the touch screen, but for different reasons...in the Suface tabletop environment, it makes sense...but for a desktop, not so much. Imagine the amount of finger prints on the screen. I don't care what it is made of, you will either transfer the natural oils of your body to the screen, or be forced to use tear off protectors. --tayme
tayme
on May 28, 2008
Oh, and here comes Waethorn to the rescue...posting his anti-Mac babble. Give it up, guys...you are sounding more and more childish with every rant that you post. --tayme
Lindy
on May 28, 2008
@lotsamystuff I could not agree more. There is certainly a place for this. On a PDA its great, a notebook less and and desktop even less. It will be a nice added feature for notebook and desktop users. It will dominate, say while doing presentations with the ability for the presenter to have a tablet at a podium and use their hands to manipulate the presentation. However creating a lengthy presentation will be done with a mouse and a keyboard for the most part. This whole event was a total joke. Windows 7 is NOTHING right now. Its Vista, with some bolted on alpha, gee whiz stuff. Yawn. The MS Vista numbers are such a joke. 150 million cals sold.....um yeah I kno w of a good 200K + just from two big companies that were "sold" as part of a Enterprise agreements, that go unused today with no plans before Windows 7 of being used. On a personal level I have un-done Vista on at least 20 new PC's since its release for friends and families. I know many other people in IT with the same kind of stories. Vista is a failure. This press conference if you will and these announcements by the big players at MS, are only being given to stop the bleeding by promising some kind of hope beyond Vista. Promises by MS on other fronts are thrown out (live mesh) to further distract from Vista disaster. MS has a huge image problem right now.
Lindy
on May 28, 2008
@weehorn "On a related note, this epitomizes iPhone users to a tee: www.youtube.com/watch" Thanks for that video, its exactly how I imagine your voice and maturity level.
Waethorn
on May 28, 2008
"Thanks for that video, its exactly how I imagine your voice and maturity level." Ya, you know, the originality of Mac users is lacking sometimes. For people that are supposed to be these Creative "Geniuses"(TM), you sure can't take a bit of humour after your tired, drab, anti-Microsoft rant. As a result, your unequivocal comeback results in: "That's not me! That's you!...."
tayme
on May 28, 2008
@Lindy - Can you tell me why you think that "Vista is a failure"? and why you "un-did" Vista on 20 new PC's for family and friends? What sort of problems were tehy having? Did you troublshoot any of them, or just tell them "Vista is a failure, here...install XP or Ubuntu." I get tired of the Mac community blindly repeating things like that with no details outlining what they experienced as issues and what they did to resolve the said issues. Waethorn's rants against Apple and everything that they do are equally as tiring. I have stated before that I use and support between 5 and 10 OS's on a daily basis...including Windows Server 2000, 2003, XP, Vista, and OS X. They all serve a purpose and get the job that they are installed to do. In fact...I have suggested to some of my less technology driven friends/family/acquaintances that they buy Macs due to the ease of use and lower risk level when it comes to security...whether that comes from a smaller install base or inherently better security in the OS doesn't matter. It frees me up because I am not on the phone with them constantly walking them through cleaning up messes caused by irresponsible browsing habits. --tayme
lotsamystuff
on May 28, 2008
"Can you tell me why you think that "Vista is a failure"? " It's the basis of a whole new word: http://tinyurl.com/5tm46m
johnpapola
on May 28, 2008
In fairness to Microsoft, the surface demonstrates that they were clearly working on Multi-touch UI in their research labs before Apple demonstrated the iPhone at Macworld. Obviously Apple's been working on it for years as well, since they have now been shipping Multi-touch devices for almost a year vs. expensive tech demos. Neither Apple nor Microsoft "invented" the concept. Jeff Han and others have had this stuff, with these same gestures for years. As is always the case with technology, the quality of the execution is what's going to matter, not some childish debate over who was first. Apple has demonstrated a superiority at bringing new technology to market in a useable way closer on schedule (Leopard's delay was unusual, as was Final Cut Server's). This isn't a mac fanboy statement or a loony dig at MS. It's reasonable and truthful. However Windows is under new management and I welcome any improvement. Where Paul goes wrong, is right here: "Microsoft isn't alone in its pursuit of multi-touch controls. Apple's vaunted but slow-selling iPhone utilizes multi-touch controls". Now, how exactly can Paul justify calling the iPhone "slow-selling". HOW? Love it or hate it, the iPhone is a hit and it's undeniably the most influential tech product of the past 5 years if not this decade. Paul damages his credibility with these biased sounded asides and colored, unsubstantiated remarks. Calling the iPhone "vaunted but slow-selling" is a statement that demands backup, and yet none is given. It's just tossed like a grenade. I'd call that flame bait or pandering to a Windows audience... or both. It's also fairly silly to say that this tech demo represents a "leapfrog" of the competition given that Windows 7 is years away. We've heard this talk before from Paul, after PDC2003 where his excitement for longhorn demos (apparently largely done in Macromedia Director) had him proclaiming that the system would "leapfrog" Apple and put the Mac in dangerous territory. It's also a little dicey to imply that Microsoft is a multi-touch "pioneer" due to surface, though I'll give him that. My advice to Paul would be to take a deep breath and long walk between seeing a Microsoft demo and writing about it in relation to Apple. Maybe that would allow the more reasoned and critical-minded side of him that is demonstrated in his podcast to emerge in these posts. Regarding the 10 million vs. 260 million remark from Ballmer... he's right. What's great about Microsoft is that they have the reach to effect more people with their work. What's great about Apple is that they have the agility and the progressive userbase that comes with it to push ahead with new technologies and interfaces faster than Microsoft can. They are the yin and the yang. As Mary J Foley said in Paul's recent podcast, Microsoft is a very good copier and they should fully embrace that reality. Apple can continue to be the cutting edge and healthy in the next age of interface just as Microsoft can "follow fast" and deliver the masses with software on cheap commodity hardware that Apple will never make. Sound fair enough for everyone?
Ocean
on May 28, 2008
Paul, you're so much better a journalist when you stick to the Windows stuff. It's obvious that it's your passion. Leave the barb-throwing at Wii and Apple users alone.
mjw149
on May 28, 2008
Referring to the iphone as slow-selling is just stupid and you lose credibility. And my pageviews.
johnpapola
on May 28, 2008
@Waethorn, That youtube link is damn funny. That guy's voice is comedy, for sure. But if you think that post made any sense, other than to reinforce that you're a partisan hack, it didn't. The iPhone is an awesome device that's revolutionizing the mobile market, and there's no reason why you have to hate it just because Apple makes it. The fact that you do is idiotic. Mac's are great. Xbox 360 is great. iPhone is awesome. Zune is a well designed player. Surface is innovative. iTunes is the best media management software on the market. Office is the best professional productivity suite. Open Office is a rip-off joke. Vista is obviously a success. Vista is not as good as OSX for consumers overall. I believe all of these things. That's how an independent mind work. Your mind however seems to work like this: "Apple sux. Everything Apple makes sux. Anything that makes fun of Apple is great. Microsoft is great. Anyone that criticizes Microsoft sux. When Paul criticizes Microsoft, even Paul sux." Every post of yours reinforces this image of your mind. Especially the childish ones. It's time to grow up and get out of black and white world. It's called zealotry and it sux.
pthurrott
on May 28, 2008
So... A lot of griping from the Apple crowd, as expected. Sorry, but you do make it easy. A few quick comments. Apple's influence over the industry is not commensurate with their actual market or usage share. The iPhone has gotten a lot of positive press, but it has not sold as well as Apple expected or publicly predicted. Presumably, a 3G version and much lower pricing will fix that, but let's be honest for a moment: For all its impressive technology, the iPhone hasn't really sold much past early adopters and tech gadget lovers (and family members of said people; stop pointing at them like they're a trend). It will. I've already voiced my opinion that the iPhone--and iPhone-like products like Android--are the future of mobile computing. I've also lambasted Windows Mobile because it stinks. And it does. Nothing has changed along those lines. I use my iPhone everyday. It's great. The Mac market share stuff came after a berating and painfully typical series of questions from Walt "Apple promoter" Mossberg. Good for Ballmer for telling it like it is: The score this year is 290 to 10. Exactly. That's doesn't denigrate Apple, the Mac, or anyone who loves these things. It's just reality. Breathe it in. It's good for you. Regarding multi-touch on Windows. Who cares? I can't stand the finger prints on my iPhone. I can only imagine how I'll feel about them on my 24-inch display. My take on this is that multi-touch is a single bullet point in a list of features that Microsoft feels they must have in the next Windows. It is certainly nowhere near as important as good voice control, which, I'm guessing, won't be elegant enough in Windows 7 to bother with. (And yes, I'm aware of the voice features in both Vista and Leopard.) The only thing really interesting about this stuff, once you peel away the fact that some of you don't like being confronted with reality because you're so used to Mac-loving journalists who regularly "report" absurd BS about like how the Mac controlling 66 percent of the consumer PC business, is that Microsoft has finally broken its silence about Windows 7. Or have they? Microsoft first revealed that multi-touch control would be a feature of Windows 7 last December. So all they've really done is shown off publicly the only unique Windows 7 feature that they've already announced. Big deal, right? And yet. Here we all are. Huh. Tweak.
Ocean
on May 28, 2008
Paul, you're so much better a journalist when you stick to the Windows stuff. It's obvious that it's your passion. Leave the barb-throwing at Wii and Apple users alone.
johnpapola
on May 28, 2008
Paul, I don't think you're being reasonable here. Let's ignore any blatantly zealous comments and focus on fair discourse. You said "slow selling" in absolute terms without qualifying what that means. Whether or not the iPhone has sold as well as crazy expectations by exuberant "analysts" and pundits is irrelevant. The iPhone sure appears to be a hit from where I stand, considering it's only sold by one carrier in most markets. That's certainly common perception. It's incumbent upon you to prove otherwise if you're going to call it "slow selling". The point is simple, my friend, with all due respect. You've inserted a blatantly controversial bit of color commentary about the iPhone for no good reason into an article about Windows 7 multi-touch. Speaking of reality checks... let's see a little more honesty here. You know what gets Apple users. You know how to offend them. You pushed this button knowingly. To turn around and be like "wait, wait... hold on now mac freaks!" isn't quite right. I'd like to think you're trying to head off Apple zealots at the pass, but it just comes across like you're baiting us. We have a saying in screen writing. If the scene doesn't advance the story... scrap it. This comment of yours didn't advance your story or add any value to information. You should've scrapped it. It's inclusion colors the writing unnecessarily and I know you're too smart not to have known that the second you wrote it. Hey, it's your right to jab at Apple and it's users. No problem. Just don't get on a high horse afterward. That's not right.
tayme
on May 28, 2008
@jp - While its true, that the debate is old and tiresome, I have to take issue with you telling Paul that its not right for him to jab at Apple and its users and get on a high horse about it...when all the while, Apple has been doing just that with the "I'm a Mac" commercials. Please explain why you feel that it is OK for Apple to do that...but wrong for Paul, or anybody else, to reciprocate? Like I've said...we are only talking about computers and operating systems here...not politics - Oh, and Paul...you are so obviously wrong about politics with your crazy liberal viewpoint! ;-) --tayme
Delmont
on May 28, 2008
I use both Vista and OSX, and I'm really disgusted with crazy Mac crowd. You Mac people want more people to use Macs. But your arrogance is turning people off and away. Enough. You know, I don't go on appleinsider.com and/or macrumors.com and bash away at Apple and praise Microsoft. So why come here and bash Windows? And like Paul has said, just cause I like WIndows doesn't take a single thing away from you liking OSX. For crying out loud, it's ONLY SOFTWARE! I've run Vista since last August, NO PROBLEMS on my end. You know, I also run OSX on an old G4 Powerbook and hey, no problems there either. I plan on getting a Samsung Blackack II this week. Does this take anything away from the iPhone? No. But I'm sure at where I work some of my Apple crazy co-workers will bash my new phone. You know I have frends that love Linux. I don't bash them for that and they actually don't bash me cause I like Windows. I'm just really fed up with the crazy Apple people. It's only software, it's not your God.
johnpapola
on May 28, 2008
@Tayme, "I have to take issue with you telling Paul that its not right for him to jab at Apple and its users and get on a high horse about it" I think you're misreading me here. Let's look at what I said a little closer: "Hey, it's your right to jab at Apple and it's users. No problem. Just don't get on a high horse afterward. That's not right." So what I'm saying here is simple. Paul DOES have the right to jab and bait Apple users all he wants. It's a free country/internet. But I take issue with doing that and then pretending to be "objective" or "above the fray". I think that's hypocritical for someone as smart as Paul. Don't sling mud and then give us a lecture about why slinging mud is typical of Apple users. Paul writes above: "A lot of griping from the Apple crowd, as expected. Sorry, but you do make it easy." Actually, it's Paul who's making it easy with this bait. But, as is typical of him, when he cools down and engages a person (like Leo on Windows Weekly) his more rational opinion emerges, as it did above: "For all its impressive technology, the iPhone hasn't really sold much past early adopters and tech gadget lovers (and family members of said people; stop pointing at them like they're a trend). It will. I've already voiced my opinion that the iPhone--and iPhone-like products like Android--are the future of mobile computing. I've also lambasted Windows Mobile because it stinks. And it does. Nothing has changed along those lines. I use my iPhone everyday. It's great." Now a partisan hack like Waethorn just claims the iPhone isn't innovative, has no new technology, and just "sucks". Paul is obviously not a partisan hack. He's just become a bit too prickly when it comes to the Apple community. What he's got to learn is to ignore the platform zealots and stop writing from a defensive (or offensive) position. The Mac community is very engaged. No doubt about it. Many are blind followers to be sure. But to assume they all are and write about Apple with them in mind isn't, in my opinion, a fair way to approach the subject if you consider yourself even handed. Clearly there's as strong an anti-mac/mac user crowd swarming the internet already. Let those hacks hack it up. Fair enough?
johnpapola
on May 28, 2008
@Delmont. I largely agree except for a few quick points. First, the only people mac fanatics offend are apple-bashers and engaged/overly sensitive tech geeks whose minds are already made up. The market isn't moving based on this group. Apple's growth makes it pretty clear that people aren't being turned away, they're doing the opposite. The reality is that just like Windows, the great majority of Mac users are average people just using the machine as a tool and not thinking much about it otherwise. They are generally wealthier, because there aren't any low-end macs, and more educated, because choosing the Mac is a choice, not the mainstream default. But they're just regular people. To treat all mac users like zealots is ignorant. There's zealots for everything on the internet. As for us "coming here and bashing Windows"... I can say that I don't bash windows. I simply defend Apple when I find it being unjustly criticized. I also think it's very fair to say that none of the Apple users here troll around the non-Apple related posts in large numbers. Look at the rest of the posts on the blog right now. Do you see them flooded with Apple users? Do you see the other posts racking up huge comments? No. Paul talks about Apple almost every day. That makes this post fair game to me. As for partisan hack posts by mac users who just bash windows and Microsoft, I find that approach just as lame and childish as the rantings of Waethorn. So we share the same distaste for fanatics.
Lindy
on May 28, 2008
@tayme Why I think its a failure? Because its being rejected by both corporate and consumer alike. That its success as MS likes to stated comes from consumers that cant get anything but Vista, and corporate licenses that go un-used. Because I experienced first hand from a consumer standpoint, and in two different corporate pilots that it failed at being better than XP. In some cases, security, its better. In some areas its no better and in some cases its worse...file copy, general performance problems etc. In the end the Value < Cost. Or put simply its not worth moving off of XP for Vista for 90% of XP users. Why did those 20 go back to XP. Well they got Vista with a new PC for the following reasons. 1. They had a 3-5 year old PC running XP and it was slow to them. The cost of a cpu upgrade (if possible/notebook) or RAM upgrade prompted them to just go for a new PC. They only could choose Vista when shoping at the major outlets Best Buy etc. 2. They had some major failure on their current system, motherboard/HD that prompted them to get a new PC vs repair an older PC. 3. They wanted an additional PC or different PC like getting a notebook...and it came with Vista. In all of the cases XP worked fine for them. It did everything they wanted. The various applications they used worked well. The printers and other peripherals worked as well with XP. So some had software problems, some new interface woes, some performance issues some had to get new printers, and some of them had all of the above. My wife is a perfect example. She had a home built desktop. Worked fine, Pentium 4 2gig of RAM...etc. She wanted a notebook for mobility and so we bought her a HP notebook last year and it came with Vista. Well she had to upgrade Quicken and a few other programs that worked fine but were a few years old because they had problems with Vista. She had these moments when Vista or IE would just pause for 90 seconds then resume. She had horrible file copy performance to and from our home FreeNas server. Her battery life was terrible compared to my work XP notebook. After about 4 weeks she asked me to go back to XP and now she is happy. Oh and by the way I do not represent the "mac community". I am a Windows IT guy by day, and have been so for 18 years, server side for the most part. I last year bought my first Mac in a very long time and I personally use a Mac as my main computer. My kids now share a Mac as well. My wife will probably get one this year. I dont push anything on my friends and family, the less I hear of their computer woes, the better I am:) Its nice to help but after years of it, it gets annoying.
johnpapola
on May 28, 2008
@Lindy, Very interesting post. I can see why you'd call Vista a failure. It's clear that Vista sells by-and-large as a result of inevitability. It's all that's out there now, and people buy computers, not operating systems... so they just get vista by default. What's the deal with this file copy issue? I haven't read much about that. Is this some file subsystem problem? Is it true of all Vista installs? That's pretty fundamental functionality. Can you describe the problem?
Lindy
on May 28, 2008
Type this into google... Vista slow file copy There were many performance updates and then SP1 that supposedly addressed the problem. There was a technet forum post that wen on for over 500 posts about the issue. Example I copied Exchange 2003 CD to folder on a Vista notebook. Then I went to a remote site and wanted to copy the folder (about 560meg/6000 files) to a new Windows 2003 over the network at the site, to install an additional Exchange server. This was in say August of last year after a "performance" update or two. Anyhow it said it was going to take 4 hours over 100meg wired network and it actually took just over an hour. With XP it would have take 10min max.
Waethorn
on May 28, 2008
"Please explain why you feel that it is OK for Apple to do that...but wrong for Paul, or anybody else, to reciprocate?" *raises hand* "As for us "coming here and bashing Windows"... I can say that I don't bash windows." "We don't like Windows. That's the point." -jp ....wait....what? "I'm just really fed up with the crazy Apple people. It's only software, it's not your God." Tell that to pappy: "Did I mention that I’m a former PC-freak turned super-crazy mac nerd that worships Steve Jobs?" - also jp "Vista is not as good as OSX for consumers overall." Of course you'd believe that. In fact, OS X is bad for consumers since it is limited to a single hardware platform (Apple's) where the manufacturer has affixed a synthetically higher price and closed off competition. And you slammed Microsoft for predatory pricing....(you called it "price dumping" which is the wrong term) "Apple sux. Everything Apple makes sux." Never said that. Sorry. The first Apple computer was great, and Steve Wozniak used to be a genius. Now he's just plain weird....I guess that airplane accident in the early 80's gave him brain damage or something. Some of that probably rubbed off on Jobs.
Waethorn
on May 28, 2008
@Lindy You call yourself a "Windows IT guy"?? Seriously? http://edge.technet.com/Media/Windows-Vista-SP1-outperforms-Windows-XP-S... I've already done this several times before. I've copied an entire DVD copy of SBS 2003 Premium R2 (which includes Exchange 2003) from a Vista machine to a Server 2003 machine and it took less than 15 mins for that (and that's a 3+GB DVD with more files than just Exchange). Server 2008 is even faster too. BTW: I tried this on a 1Gb connection from XP, and it STILL wasn't faster than Vista SP1 on a 100Mb connection.
johnpapola
on May 28, 2008
@Waethorn, It's not even worth rebutting yet another illogical, ignorant, partisan snipefest. I think everyone here that's reasonable on both side of the isle knows that you're a Zealot as bad as the worst Mac fanatics.
johnpapola
on May 28, 2008
@Lindy, Sounds like some initial optimization issues with the new networking stack, right? Didn't Microsoft replace the whole networking subsystem in Vista? I'm actually really happy to hear them making those kind of sweeping changes and it's not surprising that they cause initial headaches. On this front, I really don't fault MS for having trouble with enterprise adoption. I don't know that it's fair to call Vista a "failure" on these grounds. OSX 10.0 had all sorts of trouble with speed among other things. The Quartz layer took until 10.2 to be usably fast and Tiger really finally put it ahead of OS 9. This slow adoption in enterprises is why I NEVER want Apple to address that market. Enterprise support is the antithesis of innovation. Having to comply with what enterprises want means moving at a snail's pace. No matter what hacks like Waethorn believe in their partisan, ignorant minds, Apple is an innovator at it's very core and supporting slow customers just would hold them back.
johnpapola
on May 28, 2008
@Waethorn. I don't doubt that you are an awesome Windows guy. You clearly know your stuff. Why someone with your knowledge of your preferred platform would be such a ludicrous basher is beyond me. Just ignore Apple if you don't like it. It's easy enough to do. There's clearly something weird at play with you.
drylight
on May 28, 2008
The thing is that Apple's done this on the iPhone and will be out with hardware and an OS which supports this way before Windows 7. The sad thing is that Windows fanboys, like those on this blog, will say that MS showed it at some mockup demo and they were first. Of course, all without being first to market with a working product. Apple doesn't show off half-baked crap. It develops great products and ships them. MS just talks about it, copies and ships crap.
Cfischer83
on May 28, 2008
I don't know... seems like he's just holding up his end of the stick in this fight to me...
johnpapola
on May 28, 2008
@drylight, in fairness to MS R&D, they clearly aren't playing catch-up to apple internally here. They were on the multi-touch bandwagon at the same time as Apple. What people forget is that the same thing happened in the early 80's with GUI. It's not like the GUI just came out of the blue with Xerox. It was a widely talked about paradigm at the time. Apple did then what it has almost always done since: come to market fast and early with a great implementation that really worked. Those that dump on how something is implemented miss out on what real accomplishment means. "Real Artists Ship". http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Real_Artists_Ship.txt
Lindy
on May 28, 2008
@weehorn You define J@ck@ss....pure and simple. Yes there was a serious file copy program with Vista, and if you could read I said performance updates (ms term not mine) as SP1 supposedly fixed it I would not know if they are fixed since I dont have a no VM running Vista since Nov of 07. http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winvista_sp1.asp in Paul's own review of SP1 he brings up this issue. For every link you can possibly post I could post 3 that talk about the problem....the real problem. Did everyone have it, probably not, did a lot of Vista users have it, they sure did. Oh and I took the 10 seconds to type into google "Vista Calculating" to get the MICROSOFT TECHNET FORUM that was started in Jan of 07 that talks about the problem. http://forums.microsoft.com/TechNet/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=1358057&SiteID=17 Wow still going at 655 posts with the latest post on the 18th of May. Amazing considering its not a real problem right???? Yes a Windows IT guy, not a Mac fanatic like you throw around. Want to see my resume, MS transcripts, certs, papers I have written? These days my primary work is virtualizing thousands of Windows Servers where ever I can in the largest deployment of VMware ESX in existence. That said I am sure you have more experience with the client/small business side since its never interested me enough to pursue it professionally , and this is not some e-penis contest. You have a lot of valid points but your attitude is just so poor that your points are quickly overlooked and forgotten.
tayme
on May 28, 2008
@jp - "But I take issue with doing that and then pretending to be "objective" or "above the fray" I don't recall Paul ever claiming to be either of those...he is a blogger...a Windows blogger to be precise. He writes WinInfo for Windows IT Pro and this blog...the Supersite for Windows...seems to be he is very biased towards Windows, in fact. Yes, he talks about Apple and other companies...and possibly just to fire you guys up...but clearly, he is not objective in the least. @Lindy - So, it was mainly that these people did not have the patience or desire to learn the new OS...yes, there were issues...they were not seen be many and they were fixed. EVERYONE that I know that has purchased a new PC with Vista, absolutely loves it...especially since SP1. Give it a try again...and take the time to explore and learn it...its not so bad. --tayme
tayme
on May 28, 2008
Oh...one more thing Lindy...you might be able to shake the Apple Troll or Mac Fanatic moniker easier if you change your Avatar...it screams troll. --tayme
Lindy
on May 28, 2008
I put it there on purpose, since I was called a "Mac Fanboy" once. Even though my experience with computers is 95% Windows over the 18 years. It sticks in the eye of people like weehorn.
Lindy
on May 28, 2008
@tayme I have a copy of Vista running in VMware Fusion. I still support a few close friends and relatives (2 families) that have stuck with Vista. I ask them if they like it and they say it works fine. I got Vista working fine my self. It was using it at work on my primary computer from Beta 2 to until its RTM in the Enterprise arena, and that is when the company I was with at the time shut down the pilot. The failures at work were largely with home grown Java applications, third party VPN solutions, and other third party tools to the latest version just to get Vista working. Arguably not the fault of MS as Vista did not just pop out one day. It did change often enough to irk developers. Yes some of those people did not take the time to "learn" it as you say. And after getting updates to their software (some free, many not) and waiting for printer drivers or buying a new printer Vista did work just fine 90% of time. It came down to a question of Value. Did Vista offer enough value to overlook those issues and pay more $$$ to get it back to where they were with XP? 20 out of 22 times the answer was no. In same cases it created Mac users.
johnpapola
on May 28, 2008
@Tayme "I don't recall Paul ever claiming to be either of those...he is a blogger...a...but clearly, he is not objective in the least" No offense, but you clearly haven't been reading this blog for very long. I like Paul. I've had extended email conversations with him. I've followed his sites for years as a former hardcore PC custom-rig guy and a general geek that likes to at least know what's going on with Windows. He has on very, very many occasions called out "Mac freaks" and put himself forward as an objective and even-handed commenter with no partisan bias. That he does so is my only real criticism of him. He's also claimed that Windows Zealots don't exist on more than one occasion. No offense to Paul, but he's biased. We're all biased. He has great moments of objectivity and clear criticism, but he clearly has biases and some specific negative ones against Apple. Otherwise, great guy with a great site.
tayme
on May 28, 2008
@jp - Then we agree...I said that he is clearly biased...as did you. I have been reading Paul's stuff since it was an email newsletter in the Win95 days...and I still don't recall him ever saying he was an objective reporter. --tayme
lotsamystuff
on May 28, 2008
I think Paul's response in this thread is the most even-handed and objective thing he's written in months.
Waethorn
on May 28, 2008
"Just ignore Apple if you don't like it. It's easy enough to do." Funny, but why don't you take your own medicine? By your own accounts, you hate Microsoft, and yet you can't stop saying bad things about it.
johnpapola
on May 29, 2008
@Waethorn, Read my posts and actually think. I've said more positive things about Microsoft in this one thread than you've ever said about Apple in my reading of this site.
tayme
on May 29, 2008
@Lindy - You posted these conflicting statements in the trail above...which is true? It is this sort of double talk along with statements like "Vista is a failure." that makes me wonder how genuine you are. "I would not know if they are fixed since I dont have a no VM running Vista since Nov of 07." - May 28, 2008 8:36 PM "I have a copy of Vista running in VMware Fusion." - May 28, 2008 9:21 PM --tayme
RunTimeError
on May 29, 2008
I like stuff. I also like things.
jimmyatondo
on May 29, 2008
This is very interesting but..there is something we have to notice about we live in a world where people do what they thing is the right thing.. somebody thinks mac is the best, others that ms vista.. but the real thing is that the right thing is what we use for a better and more confortable pc use.. if you work better with mac..ok .. it is the best option for you otherwise..pc, and even linux... are different enviroments for different kind of people..
Lindy
on May 29, 2008
@tayme the first post was typo and worded pooryly. I meant to say I dont have a "NON VM Vista box" as in the only copy of Vista I run is in a VM. That copy has SP1 but I have not taken the time to test file copy speeds for a few reasons. 1. My VM is on a Macbook that almost never is wired 2. The overhead of a VM that is not running on a hyperviser alone would skew a test. 3. I just dont care. I have the Vista VM to help a few others, as I walk through things with them. I dont do anything on it that is taxing at all, and it gets turned on about once every 30 days.
lotsamystuff
on May 30, 2008
I like cats.
Lindy
on May 30, 2008
@timiteh www.rif.org. My original post on the slowness stated that it is supposedly fixed and I went to say I dont know. I dont, know or care. The problem was there for at least a year and turned off many people. It is fixed now, could be, but I dont care, Vista is a non-issue for me.

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