Windows Mobile update

John, I had some questions about the phone, so I PM'ed you.

Oh, and John, If you really believe that "All I really care about is that [Apple] is doing great" then it really makes little sense for you to spend time on a Windows blog, does it. There's a large Apple echo chamber out there where you can hang out, make claims you can't back up and not have anyone call your bluff I suspect you'll be happier.

John Getting a little snitty when people expect facts? You were the one who stated that Microsoft would do badly if the "who invented what" issue was brought up. But when your bluff was called you backed out. You're the one who stated that you only cared that Apple was doing great and then post non-facts about Apple achievements as things "everybody knows" on a Windows discussion. Really, if you can't add some real facts to the discussion...

Mike- Lets here your version of Windows revisionist history. Please explain the following and how Microsoft invented them: GUI the Mouse the first computers: the Collossus and ENIAC the proto-internet (ARPANET) the commercial internet (Tim Berners Lee and all) Its going to get real interesting when you try to explain that Microsoft really didn't create DOS (which they bought). PowerPoint (which was bought from a Mac developer), Internet Explorer which in turn was from Spyglass to Mosaic which originated on UNIX; Word anyone- read; Bravo and PARC. Next, I'm thinking that the Woz, Bruce Horn, Jeff Raskin, the entire Mac dev team, and most importantly Douglas Engelbart and his work at ARI and ARC would beg to differ as well. I'll give credit where credits is due. MS is a great business. Any attempts to label them as inventors is going to be laughable but fun to watch you try. Mike I respect you Windows prowess, but your points reads like astroturf, or better yet an "open" version of the Halloween documents.

@Papola: Wow! Just when I think you're done, you find more ways to say how much you like Apple and dislike Microsoft. Microsoft does compete with some of its partners. So does Google, in fact. Would I be right in saying that Apple learned what it could from Rokr and went ahead and introduced its own phone? Or it learned what it could from Microsoft Excel for Mac and went and developed Numbers? In fact, come December, Apple and Google will be competing with each other. If Android does become successful against the iPhone, I would like to see what you have to say about Google then.

"Wow! Just when I think you're done, you find more ways to say how much you like Apple and dislike Microsoft." Really? You think? Duh. I'm an Apple fan. I don't like Microsoft. I've never hid either fact. I don't like to throw around broad "Microsoft Sucks" style nonsense since that's just unproductive hackery. I'm not saying that Apple is a saint here. Even so, competing with partners isn't the same problem as what Microsoft did with Burst. Urge and playsforsure is also pretty terrible. If you're going to be "the platform company"... you have to live up to that bargain when other people rely on your stuff. Apple gets dinged for being very tight about their platform on the iPhone, but at least everyone knows where they stand. It's not a bait-and-switch like playsforsure. All that said. Whatever. My point is that those on this site claiming Microsoft is such a great partner are living in a dream world. Anyone that's read about the anti-trust trial knows that the entire industry lived in fear and suspicion of Microsoft on many different levels as both partner and competitor.

Again, mike... I think we're all waiting to hear some more about your background given the claims you are making. What have you done that makes you feel you know the history of technology better than everyone? I'm sensing a dodge here.

John, First you attack me for listing my credentials then you attack me for not listing them? Seriously. It's just getting silly.

What credentials did you list, exactly?

John, re: credentials Quoting you on this page... "Since you're so interested in repeated touting your credentials, " Again, you'd probably be happier on some board where you can claim whatever you want and as long as it reinforces the board's biases, nobody will ask for facts.

""Really? You think? Duh. I'm an Apple fan.I don't like Microsoft." Really????!! BWAHHAHAH! Talk about contradicting yourself on the wrong target. You've said before that you like Microsoft, and that you just "don't like Windows. That's the point". Your words. Now you're contradicting (read: retracting) that statement. So now the mask comes off. You sir, can now be branded an iLIAR! Whatever nonsensical claptrap you can murmer on with can now be taken as complete dishonesty.

Wow, Mike. Wow. Using Iraq and WMD as a bizarro world strawman in a discussion about Microsoft and the antitrust trial. So reading about something is now invalid because of Iraq? You really aren't a very nice person to interact with, sir. I think that's pretty clear for all to see. These are the "facts" you bring to the table? Nice facts. And nice way to, once again, dodge the question at hand. You claimed that you are the lord of computing history "Having been in the personal computer industry since before there was an Apple, I really don't need to much work to play that game since I was around for it." That is your alleged credential to act like a pompous know-it-all? A quick look at every article in this blog shows that you have taken on the role of Microsoft defender extraordinaire. You obviously think VERY highly of yourself and your industry knowledge. So. What do you do? What have you worked on? What invention and innovations have you been a part of? So far, you've shown nothing. For all we know, you've been working at Radio Shack selling wiring kits since 1965 and you consider that being "in the personal computer industry". If you're going to make bold claims about your knowledge and experience... be prepared to back them up. In our discussion of OSX, I talked about Quartz, Core Image and how that innovation has lead to powerful applications that I use in my work as a director/editor. You can see my work at my website and judge the quality for yourself. You obviously think Microsoft has never done anything wrong. I'm neither prepared nor should be expected to re-litigate the anti-trust trial. The judge found them to be a guilty of abusing their monopoly, bullying competitors illegally and ordered them split. I'll let the already-litigated case stand for itself. You work on the "one example invalidates all" model of argument while rejecting the same in kind from others. Regardless, this is all just a dodge. You want me to go away rather than let everyone know what qualifies you to behave this way. Sorry. You are wishing for the echo chamber you claim I should seek. I don't claim to be an expert on all things. I just try to come to the table with a complete thought and a critical mind. I'm a fan of Apple but also a former PC builder and do just love tech in general. @Sharky, I do love all good tech. I own and enjoy and Xbox. I use and mostly like MS Office. I'm not remotely as partisan as some of you try to paint. But don't go to the "it's for profit" defense on this one. There's nothing wrong with admitting that Microsoft as abused it's monopoly. It's already a proven fact in our highest court. Don't stoop to Mike's level.

@Dip, Let me spell out what I mean by "partisan hack". "PARTISAN HACK": A partisan hack is someone that is so committed to their "team" that they are incapable of acknowledging what's reasonably true about the other "team". It's endemic of any subject be it politics, game consoles, cars, or computing platforms. There's often a degree of ignorance and mindless headline quoting that goes with partisan hackery, but it's not a requirement. The intelligent hacks are the most vexing as they seem smart enough to be capable of objectivity (in so far as it's possible by any person) and yet aren't. Partisan hackery is often best identified by someone's inability to stay on a subject, constantly dodging and changing topics to evade true rebuttal. Partisan hacks will often try to dodge this mantel by acknowledging the existence of a point from the other side (when it's demonstrably indisputable) but then marginalizing the value of the point, often in contradiction to their own line of argument. Personal attacks, often in the form of calling people a "liar" are also a common symptom of partisan hackery. In the worst case, a partisan hack has a personal vested interest in their side of the discussion and so are financially motived to spin the truth and ignore what doesn't fit into their worldview. These are the true shills. They are lobbyists of the worst sort. Perhaps most dangerous of all... partisan hacks often seem to wish away the existence of the other team. This kind of hope for a world of pure ideology is scary and weird. Now, you can certainly favor a side without being a hack. In fact, I don't know how anyone that's passionate and active (and therefore interesting to debate with) can NOT have preferences. EXAMPLES: Waethorn is an amazing partisan hack. He doesn't think Apple has done anything worthwhile since opendoc. That is not a reasonable position. He dodges direct debate by changing the subject. He calls me and others "liar" routinely without any regard for what that really means. Everyone reasonable on this site knows Waethorn is a hack. Mike is more articulate and seems more willing to engage in discussion, but his hackery comes into play pretty quickly. His is the more subtle variation by acknowledging what can't be disputed (where-as Waethorn won't admit the sky is blue if a mac user says it) but then trivializing the point. For example. We had a lengthy back and forth in another thread after Mike claimed that Apple had contributed next to nothing to desktop operating systems. I went into a detailed explanation (as deep as I'm capable of at least) of how important the Quartz drawing engine was to OSX, how it's GPU compositing predated even PDC2003's Longhorn demo and was currently powering very impressing realtime broadcast-quality animation. I pointed out that Avalon/WPF was and is touted by Microsoft themselves as one of the the Key pillars of Windows Vista, and so Apple's innovation and leadership in that space and the importance of that functionality was pretty well established. His retort? Yeah... okay... Quartz came first... but it's not a major thing. I still say Apple contributes little. That's partisan hackery. Microsoft themselves call a new graphics subsystem a crucial and essential part of the Vista upgrade but Mike must trivialize that in contradiction to reality in order to hold to his original point. Now to me. I try not to hack it up, though sometimes my passions can get the better of me on the insulting front, when pressed by craziness. I'm an Apple fan. I don't like Microsoft or their product strategy in general, though I do enjoy some of their products and wish them to succeed. I'm perfectly willing to admit when Microsoft does something right or beats Apple in an area. And I think I have a far better sense of the proportionality of these things. I don't trivialize major accomplishments the way Mike does. I certainly don't ignore them the way Waethorn does. I love my Xbox (which is the most mac-like product they make). I think the Zune is a very good product, if painfully derivative. Office for Windows is excellent and it's good enough on the Mac. Media Center and Tablet are both innovative though both are market flops to date. I think Microsoft does a better job communicating with developers and their community overall than Apple (that's pretty clear). But I also think Microsoft abuses that communication to chill the market with early discussion of products that often don't ship or don't ship as promised. We can go on. The point is, I have a nuanced perspective on Microsoft. It's not "Microsoft Sucks". As a libertarian-leaning person, I'm even willing to dig into the anti-trust situation in the context of the role of government in markets... but that's a far bigger debate that I'm not really studied up for right this second. So judge me all you'd like. I'm crazy verbose. I waste time on this site because I like to debate and because Paul posts about Apple every day. Wishing people like me away doesn't say anything good about the people that do so. Peace.

"He doesn't think Apple has done anything worthwhile since opendoc." Sorry, but that's an outright lie. I already said at least 2 products from Apple that I liked. Just because you can't remember that, doesn't make it untrue. "He calls me and others "liar" routinely without any regard for what that really means." It means you aren't telling the truth. Seems pretty straight-forward to me. The only person it doesn't, is apparently you. "a partisan hack has a personal vested interest in their side of the discussion and so are financially motived to spin the truth and ignore what doesn't fit into their worldview. These are the true shills." AHA! So you are an Apple shill, since you base your business around Final Cut Studio, OS X, and thus, Apple, as you so clearly define in your pro-Apple blathering.

I'll leave you all with these two links, which I think are both right on. http://loomisnews.wordpress.com/2008/07/05/how-to-win-an-argument-on-the... http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/fanboy.htm

@dip... Haha. Those links are great. I think in this discussion, I'm the ass making the same noises over and over and Mike & Waethorn are the two-year-olds plugging their ears screaming "I can't hear you!!!!". heh. I'm gonna bookmark those.

"The flimsy nonsense you dig up to base that "LIAR" tag on is shameful. Calling someone a liar is a serious charge. Me saying at some point that I liked Microsoft and now saying that I overall don't, or do only for certain things isn't worthy of that charge." Why? Because it's the truth? You are a liar. The fact that you deny it is the only thing shameful here. "You claimed there was no Canadian demand for the iPhone and that Rogers was being practically forced to sell it by Apple." Sorry, never said that. I said that Rogers didn't want it. Period. No part of that was about Apple or customer demand. That's another "LIAR" strike against you, I'm afraid. The fact is that Rogers didn't want it because it meant that they would have to readjust their inflated data rates so as to accomodate users that want to use their iPhone for massive web browsing. Now they have data rates that they can both manage and subsidize the phone cost, and still profitize their investment. It's still more expensive than competitors though, and for no reason at all. Whether or not this is Apple's fault, I'd say that if Apple wanted to garner sales and drive costs down, they should've released an EVDO version, considering that EVDO is in their primary market - North America. As such, they chose to exclusively sell to a select network in each market. They chose exclusivity over competition. Their platform only runs on one system, and they have no interest in competition at all. Apple continues to grossly profit from this, and Apple fanboys lap it up, even though they continue to get hosed. The recurring revision from Apple has only minor feature additions while not addressing the major pain points of the original. Instead of actually listening to people, they force-feed new features that nobody really cares about. Similarly their software flaws continue to flourish, and people still keep having problems with it, despite patch after patch being released. Hmm....did Apple use the same OS X devs to do the iPhone & MobileMe? "You troll Apple stores for customers." Sorry, but I don't "troll" for customers. I pick up unhappy customers. That's hardly trolling. If the "geniuses" really knew how to keep customers happy, they wouldn't be running out of the store screaming [mad]. "The Apple store is your direct competitor." BWAHAHAHA! Seriously?! ROFLMAO! Hardly. In all honestly, let's just say we have a working business relationship: they screw customers up the pooper and reject them, and I take them on and make them happy. No, my real competition is the mindset that a "value" system = a "good value" system. That said, on at least 3 separate occasions, I can thank Apple for sales of new PC's. Only from their lackluster customer support and poor hardware design would I have been able to take those customers away from them. Thanks Apple! >:) "And I really don't know how I personally profit from liking Final Cut Pro. I don't currently own any Apple stock. I still use After Effects instead of Apple Motion because AE is better." "I don't sell final cut or Apple computers." No, your 3 page long comments just sound like case studies every time you post for no reason whatsoever, eh? "If Avid or Adobe beat Final Cut for what I need, I'd switch with ease." That's hilarious. Tell us another story.

Whoever you are DO NOT COME TO NEW YORK.

"Whoever you are DO NOT COME TO NEW YORK. " I don't know who that was addressed to. I have already bought the US Open Tennis tickets. Sorry.

John Assuming: "Whoever you are DO NOT COME TO NEW YORK. " was not meant as a threat to someone, you should probably clear it up. It comes across that way.

>>"Whoever you are DO NOT COME TO NEW YORK. " >>>was not meant as a threat to someone, you should probably clear it up. It comes across that way. >>>>"it was john papola's wife" And who was it addressed to ... and why?

From John's webpage: " SITES I VISIT DAILY: hdforindies.com cinematech.blogspot.com NewTeeVee.com Prolost.blogspot.com Reduser.net Daringfireball.net Digg.com Macsurfer.com Engadget.com" Note that Paul's site is missing from the list. Are you embarrassed to mention it? Also, your webpage throws exceptions in Windows (both in FF3 and IE7).

"Note that Paul's site is missing from the list. Are you embarrassed to mention it?" I smell a proxy bonch.

Wae, it was his wife. I am always signed in on my computer so my wife can easily add a comment, and our wives tell us to get off these sites when we get made. You better be careful or she'll kick your butt!:) i bet she's a feisty Irish girl like mine. Me, I'm Italian, but trust me, don't piss off my mom or say a bad word about her [adorable] baby boy.

I suspect that when Paul launches "The SuperSite Switcher Guide - From Mac to Windows - You know you want to" that he's advertising on the top of the SuperSite main page there'll be a lot of Mac lobbiest's wives posting...