Windows, not Walls

"In the US, Apple barely has sufficient sales to have some influence in the personal computer market. Not enough to do the second role through actual innovation but with the advertising and fan driven mindshare, enough to do some of that role. A key part of the resentment against Apple is that they do not innovate to drive the market and instead focus on intangibles that do nothing to improve the product ecosystem." You really cannot be serious. Can you? Apple is virtually unique in that their influence goes far beyond their meager market share (in personal computing, at least). But to state that they "do not innovate to drive the market" and "do nothing to improve the product ecosystem" is just silliness--or wishful WinJihadist thinking.

@lotsamystuff, Clearly Apple's had little to no impact in the areas of computer hardware design (and industrial design in general). Clearly the current move towards stylish PCs has nothing to do with Apple's success. Clearly the iMac didn't spark a copy-cat revolution across devices from PCs to Toasters. Clearly Apple's all-in-ones have played no role in the design of the Dell XPS One, the HP and Gateway all-in-ones. Clearly, the Titanium powerbook's widescreen display had no impact on the move to wide-screen displays in laptops. On a side, note... clearly the iPod and iPhone have had little to no impact on the industry and design decisions in the media player and smart phone markets. Or.. wait... maybe the opposite of everything I just wrote is true. Duh. Any honest and objective observer of the PC market must admit that Apple has had a very significant impact on the industry. Mike wants to trivialize it because he's trying to pretend that Apple isn't a computer hardware maker. But that's not reasonable or honest. Apple's impact has been an order of magnitude in excess of their market share and Paul's obsession with them on his "supersite for windows" is just one tiny example of that. Come on, Mike. Give up the hyperbole. It destroys your credibility. Just as it makes you look biased to be marginalizing the graphics subsystem innovation by Apple in an era in which content creation and viewing is driving consumer computing. Admit where we have good points, Mike. I know you have plenty of good points too. Give up your black-and-white world.

@ Gorath The article was talking about being Number 1 in Education and Number 5 Overall. Education "Statistically, Apple sold 19.2 percent of all computers sold in the European education sector - including servers. Apple is also the leading PC manufacturer in the UK - eclipsing Dell - for laptops and now also desktops, holding 17.3 percent of UK education market share, the analysts said." From what I see in the schools and universities in England this figure very much rings true. Overall "In the UK, Apple shifted 119,000 Macs (this quarter), giving the company a 4.3 percent grip on the overall computer market, the analyst's revealed. That's up from 85,000 Mac sales last year, giving Apple respectable growth of 40 percent - almost double that of the wider PC industry. Apple is now the fifth biggest PC maker in the UK." The actual figures for the UK are. Apple market share 4.3% Apple consumer market share 9% These are expected to double in the next 2 years. Which? magazine (Our version of Consumer Reports) has rated the MacBook and MacBook Pro as the 2 best laptops in the UK We have 3 monthly Mac magazines (MacFormat, MacWorld, and iCreate) and MacUser publishes every 2 weeks. MacWorld UK is the largest circulation Mac magazine in the world. We have more Apple Stores than anywhere outside the US and more are opening all the time. I could hardly breathe in the one in Cambridge last month due to the crowds. Perhaps most telling of all when I took advantage of my Microsoft's Home User program with my employer ( £17.50 about $35 for MS Office) the Microsoft sales rep said 'Sir, will that be 2007 for Windows or 2008 for Mac?'. Naturally it was 2008. :-) So when Mike says Apple does "badly" outside the US it really means does "rather well" as normal people understand it. He probably thinks that people line up for Zunes and Windows Mobile Phones ;-) Virtual Reality is marvellous!!

"Perhaps most telling of all when I took advantage of my Microsoft's Home User program with my employer ( £17.50 about $35 for MS Office) the Microsoft sales rep said 'Sir, will that be 2007 for Windows or 2008 for Mac?'. Naturally it was 2008. :-)" Wow! It is indeed telling. I got mine for $20 in the US through the same program. That's almost half the price.

But avro, the fact that they beat Dell doesn't mean that they beat all the other manufacturers together. Remember that a lot of people make computers. Some smaller schools round here also use local firms, as they give good discounts to local education authorities and so on. I'm not doubting that apple are doing well, or growing, or that they make fine machines. But my experience of computers being used in education must differ wildly to yours. As for the offer on office being telling, what is it telling exactly? that the guy who was dealing with you knew that office was available for both windows and OSX? How is that significant in any way?

Let the records show that tayme got owned by both Mike & Mary (moreso Mary)

If I may interject here based upon my personal experience. Almost all of the local school districts in Dallas/Fort Worth area, use Windows machines. Mac orders make less than 1 percent of PC orders for Dallas, Irving, Carrollton/Farmers Branch, Plano, Lewisville, and other districts in the area. This is an area of over 6 million people, where their kids aren't using Macs on a regular basis. The main vendors are HP and Dell.

Sub, I thought you were from Vulcan?

There is a Vulcan compound in every major city on Earth including Berlin and Canberra. I think the Dallas consulate is on Star Trek Lane off Apollo and east of Jupiter Road. Very logical because the local Fry's Electronics is between Jupiter Road and Northwest Highway. No subspace transmitter's available yet.

Dude, let me change what you said and see if it has the same effect. "Anecdotal "data" (positive) about Apple= Absolute, irrefutable, undeniable proof that Apple is of the grandest importance. After all "M$" innovates nothing and everyone should thank Apple that they do... " It goes both ways.

@Dude - I am with you on that...I have made the same point before about words like that. I was taught that at a very early age...I guess that some others weren't. --tayme

Dude1313 I've generally found that when people issue non-denial denials like saying how outraged they are or how laughable a statement is but don't actually say why it's wrong, you've generally spoken a truth they both don't want to admit and secretly know is true. For the record, the two statements I've made that you've mischaracterised rather than answer are: Microsoft, given their dominent position in the market and pressure from change averse corporate customers, should be the least likely operating system vendor to be innovating, yet they're the primary innovator in PC operating systems. OS X is stagnant and Apple has offered almost no innovation in PC operating systems in the seven and a half years since 10.0 shipped. So, perhaps you can stop laughing long enough to tell us some of the great innovations in PC operating systems that have been introduced by Apple in OS X. Here's a start for you, go to the Apple site and show us which of those "300+ New Features" in 10.5 weren't just a case of "Cupertino, start your photocopiers". Here's the URL to save you some time: http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/300.html Don't forget, we're talking about OS innovations. You know, things that improve the state of the art of operating systems and not things like "Empty the Trash from the Trash itself with the Empty Trash button" or enhancements to the UI of bundled applicatons. Still laughing?

Actually Mike you continue to prove my and Tayme's point(s) daily. Keep up the good work. And if yow want to be pedantic: I said laughable, not laughing

And neither did I say "outrage"; hyperbole much?

Mike do you truly think I feel the need to engage you in a "my dad is bigger then your Dad" shouting match? Do you feel that look: “A non-denial from Dude” is supposed to spur me into action? Do you think I’m sufficiently motivated to engage in a “this for that”, point by point dissection of which is better or which innovates more? Keep waiting buddy. Could it be that quite a few of us find you and your vigorous defense of Fortress Microsoft tiring? I’m willing to bet there are many here in the same boat as me. I owe nothing to you. You and your extremely Windows-Centric viewpoint will not see anything other then what you want to: Which coincidentally makes you just the same as the Apple fanatics you so deride… pot meet kettle and all. Your method of posting can be summed up quite easily: ignore pertinent points that are telling by posters, shout your own screed as loudly as possible, double talk, thread hijack and then claim you didn’t and then deride others for doing the same (hypocrisy), blather on about how your point is the “one true creed” and all that. You might imagine that you are fighting the good fight in much the same way John does, however there is a difference and it has nothing to do with viewpoint. John can acknowledge he might actually be wrong. You? Haven’t seen it yet. I have neither the time nor inclination to engage in a “debate” with someone who claims they know everything, all the while shouting their own moral superiority (whether or not its intentional) and be shocked that no one wants to hear what they have to say. Guess what it does come across that way, its comes across as arrogance. Thanks, but no thanks. I would much rather have sane levelheaded discussion(s) with the likes of Tayme, Subzero and Dip, who while I disagree with, respect their viewpoint(s). Sadly you can’t see that, and perhaps never will.

Actually Raj. I'm not the only one who noticed it. As far as side stepping questions, seems to be the norm for some... when in Rome and all. I rarely, if ever, engage in pointing out a posters flaws, this case its warranted. Its called a no-win situation: Point it out and be done with it I say. Lastly I'm not about to play his (or yours) game of "See he can't list out anything" when its ultimately a futile endeavor. I'm not playing by yours (or his) rules. I have nothing to prove, then again I'm not running around saying that Apple hasn't done anything in years. And if by some miracle I do list these out why would I care to listen to the long winded explanations of why I'm wrong? Grab a dictionary and look up the word futile. Mike (and you apparently) have a view of how things work, great. I'm not trying to change that, but the opposite sure seems to be true.

Raj What you're seeing is that, apparently, Dude and John have heard "Apple is the innovator" and "Microsoft never innovates" so often that they believe it without having a clue whether it's true. I actually would love to be proven wrong. As I said in an earlier post, I think that the industry needs some solid innovation in the desktop OS field and I would like nothing better than to see an innovative competitor to Windows. What I mourn, though, is the current state where the largest competitor (Apple) has stopped innovating and relies on deceptive marketing rather than improving the ecosystem.

Really that's what I said, heh Tayme more double speak here. I'm fully aware I brought this on myself. It's ok I have big shoulders I'll survive. Don't see where I claimed otherwise. Your style of posting is what I'm pointing out, I could care less that you want to debate innovations, as mentioned and you apparently missed. Many have taken you to task namely Tayme and Mary especially in the absolutes that you dealt in this very thread about Market Share, but no rather then admit you are wrong you danced around the issue,especially in light of the fact you had no clue what you were talking about.

Dude1313 You said, "I owe nothing to you." You attacked my postings as "laughable". You owe me either an explanation of why you are right or an apology and retraction. I have offered you the chance at the former and you've repeatedly ducked that chance. It's not "put up or shut up", it's "put up or apologize" The choice is yours.

Dude1313 You said, "I owe nothing to you." You attacked my postings as "laughable". You owe me either an explanation of why you are right or an apology and retraction. I have offered you the chance at the former and you've repeatedly ducked that chance. It's not "put up or shut up", it's "put up or apologize" The choice is yours.

Mike looking at it (even thou you still misinterpt) my points I will apologize for to the points you object to, wrong on my part. I'm still not going to engage in a point for point basis it serves no purpose.

Mike, I think I know what you are driving at. At the core, I can say I somewhat agree with you and somewhat disagree with you concerning this exercise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are really asking what is an innovation, and what is just simply a feature. That is what I'm hearing here. The problem with the analogy is that it really depends on how far you want to stretch it. Let's take this extreme example (as many know I like to use the extreme side of things as a measure of their worth). One could say that the last innovation in the automobile was the combustion engine, and in some ways you would be correct. Everything after the combustion engine has just simply been a feature added on top of that one innovation. There has been no change in the way that automobiles essentially function after that. You put in fuel and go. However, to say that this was the only important innovation would be taking the concept of this innovation way too far. Just as much as the negative naysayers against what Mike is saying need to provide some examples of true innovation, Mike, you also need to come to the plate with some better defined examples of innovation, and why they are important, what makes them innovative, etc. In either case, the exercise is like trying to explain the plot in the movie Wild Things. @Webguy, in those examples you posted, I wouldn't really call most of them true innovation. Nice and welcomed features? Yeah, we can agree on that. Out of that list, taking in to account I don't even know what some of them are, but Postscript and TrueType were the only true innovative examples from that particular list you provided, in my opinion.

@Webguy, Is it any surprise that Mike ignored you and went on to claim "OS X is stagnant and Apple has offered almost no innovation in PC operating systems in the seven and a half years since 10.0 shipped." I've listed this stuff before with Mike. And because he's hacking it up and shilling for Microsoft, he trivializes the points. I don't claim that "Microsoft never innovates" or that "Apple is the only innovator". Those kinds of statements of absolute "truth" are wrong... and precisely the kind of rhetoric that Mike is all about on this site (only in Microsoft's favor). Again, the whole set of graphics and audio technologies that include Quartz Extreme, Core Image, Core Video Core Animation, Core Audio, etc are major improvements to multimedia and GUI features, functionality and developers tools. Many came out as early as 10.2 in 2002. We are in an era in which consumption and creation of content is one of the top uses for the computer by many consumers. These are very important innovations. They underpin Apple's own applications like the amazing Motion and even iChat (with it's awesome virtual room for multi-video chat). And developers are building amazing, high-quality realtime applications like Pixelmator with these tools and saving themselves massive amounts of work by leveraging the OS instead of doing their own custom code for the same work. Free, rich, 32bit float broadcast quality realtime image processing. It's a big deal. Yet Mike said I was "trying again to cite one API set in one library that came out a couple of months before the equivalent set in Windows". Wrong. That's a dishonest misrepresentation of the technologies and the timetable for their delivery. But there real problem is simple. Mike isn't interested in what any of us may have to say. No matter what we bring to the table, he will downplay it as trivial and irrelevant, dismiss us as fanboys and ignore the content of the rebuttal and then go on restating his hype and FUD as fact again and again and again. Of course, it doesn't matter. We obviously should expect this kind of blind cheerleading from a Microsoft employee who came through the US vs. MS trial having been brainwashed by the accused to the point of being in denial of the verdict. Only Microsoft innovations count as innovations. We get it Mike. Retooling the graphics subsystem is only a big deal when it's a pillar in Vista (one of the three main pillars according to Microsoft's own communication with the community). When it's demonstrated that Apple got there much much earlier... that's trivialized to being 4 lines of code in one API that nobody uses. It's amazing the level of detailed knowledge Mike seems to feel he has regarding the entirety of OSX's codebase and APIs. Truly. It takes a very special kind of hubris to dismiss it all in statements that require (and thus imply) absolute knowledge.

John You've said that I know more than you do and then when I come to a different conclusion than you based on that knowledge that you admit I have, I'm brainwashed.

@Mike, It is the way you phrase things that's wrong. The either-or partisan hackery. Your sense of the proportions and degrees of importance is a matter of pure opinion that you treat as indisputable fact. You treat the gray as if it's black and white and respond to disagreements with "I've lived it". You're a smart, knowledgeable guy. But your approach to these topics is just coated in arrogance and condescension.