Analyst: Apple’s U.S. consumer market share now 21 percent

Philip Elmer-DeWitt from Fortune Online provides one relevant statistic and one April Fool's joke about the Macintosh. First, the relevant bit, which is of course close to my heart:

According to IDC, Apple’s worldwide market share grew from 2.4% in 2006 to 2.9% in 2007. Piper Jaffray’s chief Apple analyst Gene Munster is conservatively modeling global market share to remain flat this year, but he notes that enterprise sales account for 70% of the worldwide market, a segment Apple is not aggressively targeting. In the consumer market, where Apple does compete, he estimates the Mac’s share is now 10% worldwide and an impressive 21% in the U.S.

Put another way, once we contort the numbers in two ways in Apple's favor (first, by focusing solely on the US market, where Apple's market share is highest for obvious economic reasons, and secondly by completely ignoring a full 70 percent of all PC sales), suddenly, Apple's market share doesn't look so bad. (Actually, there's a third contortion here, as "consumer sales" aren't easy to measure, so this is mostly an educated guess on the part of Munster and IDC.)

These kinds of manipulations may seem unfair and, of course, they sort of are in the sense that statistics can be used to show anything. But let's be honest: Apple mostly targets the consumer market with the Mac. (On the flip side, when Apple targets the business market with the iPhone this year in order to reach its promised 10 million units sold milestone, few Apple fanatics will draw this distinction or have a problem factoring in business sales when they tout that machine's successes. They're cute like that.)

So what does this all mean? In Apple's strongest market by far, and by guessing at what consumer sales are, the Mac gets about 21 percent of the market. Despite the dubiousness of the measurement, I'm willing to accept this as relevant and "true": About 1 out of every 5 PCs sold to consumers (i.e. students and other individuals) are Macs.

Here's the April Fools bit:

Although consumers and investors tend to believe Macs cost 20% to 30% more than comparable PCs, according to Munster, he did some price comparisons and found that on average, the price difference is closer to 16% for desktop machines and 9% for laptops — essentially unchanged from a similar comparison he made two years ago.

This is completely irrelevant if cunningly argued. There's a myth of there that Macs and PCs are comparably priced. But this isn't true. What's true is that "comparable" PCs and Macs are comparably priced. But Apple only sells a few different models. When John Q. Consumer shops for a PC, he's doesn't compare Macs with comparable PCs. He compares Macs and PCs. And what he will find, for example, is that he could buy a low-end Macbook notebook for as low as $1099. Or, he could buy a low-end Dell Inspiron 1525 notebook for just $499, less than half the price of the Mac. Are they comparable? No, not from a specs perspective. But that's not the point, nor is it how people shop. (It's like arguing that BMWs are comparably priced to Fords. Maybe they are, for "comparable" models, if there are such things in that market. I don't know.)

PCs are still less expensive than Macs because there are far more choices in the PC market. One of the choices you get is to buy a less expensive machine with fewer options.

Anyone who believes otherwise is, well, a fool.

Discuss this Article 62

peterkirn
on Apr 1, 2008
Actually, your low-end BMW (or Merc, or whatever) is in fact more expensive with the same "specs." You're paying for the nameplate. Likewise, you could look at that 9-16% margin as paying for the nameplate ... and, as with cars, the people who do assume they're getting more value/quality, which I think you could argue in regards to Mac OS X the OS. But you're right, he's ignoring the matter of choice. I just wouldn't be so quick to run to those enterprise numbers. Yeah, they're a big deal. But part of the criticism from consumers is this feeling that the Windows platform is for enterprise, not consumers. I'd just come back to the fact that another 4 out of 5 US consumers -- and more abroad -- chose a PC that doesn't have an Apple logo on it. And because of the additional choices, I don't think that number is likely to change.
johnpapola
on Apr 1, 2008
Paul, this post is your most fair and reasonable blogging about Apple market share to date. 20% consumer share in the US sounds pretty dead on based on the collection of retail sales numbers, software sales marketshare, Mac office market share for Microsoft and probably a whole host of data Munster has compiled from direct channel research. I'm very happy to see you acknowledge this as generally fair and relevant. I'd like to hope that you will keep this number in your mind when you point to the worldwide share as a means of marginalizing the Mac's significance in the computing landscape. As for the price comparisons... also, you've done a very fair job. Apple's isn't providing consumers nearly as much choice in their line-up as the PC industry. They basically ignore the ultra-cheap, "last-year's tech sold at a discount" machines that are out there. I don't want to get into "total cost" discussions, but I'll simply say that I've always been able to sell my macs at a good price on ebay. The completeness of their feature-sets along with the relative scarcity that exists thanks to Apple's trim lineup provides for a healthy used mac market. Still, if you can only spend $600 and you want a notebook, Apple ain't gonna work for you. So far, ignoring these bargain shoppers hasn't hurt Apple at all... and focusing on them appears to have hurt Dell a great deal, as it pushed down their margins. Now, Dell is trying to move their ASP up with premium-priced, premium-branded machines like the XPS line and the Alienware purchase. That seems like a validation of Apple's strategy from a business standpoint. As for the iPhone and Apple fanatics including or excluding the business market, there's a very important difference: software. The PC consumer software ecosystem is not interested in enterprise sales, so they're not relevant for consumer platform viability. For a phone, which is a much more converged device where business and personal work interact constantly, the enterprise is a real hurdle to adoption of the iPhone. For example. A stock broker may use a locked-down, near single-purpose PC at work for his proprietary intranet-only trading applications then come home to Mac and be happily served (I know many of these guys). But he really only want's to carry one phone around all day, and he wants it to have his work email on it. So this user can be completely well served by the consumer-orient mac in the home environment, but his phone NEEDS to be enterprise oriented because it serves a very different purpose. When you start adding in the business applications that will emerge on the iPhone like salesforce and the like, you have the perfect device for smartphone users. Corporate email, business applications, great web browsing and all you media. It's the commuter's dream machine. For those of us commuting into NYC everyday, the iphone is the single greatest device to come out in a decade. I can't wait to ditch my viacom blackberry come june. Anyway. Good work on the post.
johnpapola
on Apr 1, 2008
Also... for those who consider margins to be the sign of "gouging"... you're only half-right. If margins are too low in a market, the incentive to invest and innovate disappears. Reasonable margins are a necessity for businesses to provide a quality product and stick with a market.
johnpapola
on Apr 1, 2008
One more thing... "There's a myth of there that Macs and PCs are comparably priced. But this isn't true. What's true is that "comparable" PCs and Macs are comparably priced." - I think that most people are smart enough to understand that comparing prices between two products generally means comparing what you're buying as well. People don't say that a Toyota Camry is "overpriced" compared to a Corolla. They'd never compare the two in a price discussion in that way because they're different levels of product. You're paying more for the Camry and getting more. Shoppers break down into price thresholds. "I don't want to spend more than $$." is the way people think. So, if the buyer doesn't want to spend the minimum price of a Mac, they're out of luck and the PC offers them what they need. But if you're in the price range, then Paul you are essentially agreeing that Mac's are comparably priced: period. I don't think munster is using cunning argument here. I think you are conflating price and choice. If you want what a mac offers, it's a competitively priced computer. I think you, me and Munster are on the same page with that, and I don't think it's that confusing.
Dipsh t Admin
on Apr 1, 2008
"Actually, your low-end BMW (or Merc, or whatever) is in fact more expensive with the same "specs." You're paying for the nameplate." I think that's some of the price difference, but I can't find any car by any manufacturer for significantly less than a low end 3 Series that matches the overall performance of it. You might be able to match up features, but by spending more you really are getting more in the way of a much better car overall. "then come home to Mac and be happily served " And I know a ton of people that come home to a Windows computer and are happily served. What's your point? "as it pushed down their margins." OK, but you compensate with higher sales. You can't make high margins on cheap near commodity goods. That market is still very valid though, and will continue to be a force in the US and especially emerging markets. Remember that people that can't afford a Mac are people too, and they deserve a computer just as much as anyone else. While I'm not explicitly singling you out, there is an air of elitism amongst many Mac users that those that can't afford a Mac don't deserve to be computer users. Besides, in he enterprise market, which I DO care about more than the consumer market, low cost computers are a necessity. And they are just as valid in comparisons. "That seems like a validation of Apple's strategy from a business standpoint" They are not really doing anything differently than they always had. They have offered their Precision line of workstations for quite a long time, which cater not only to the enterprise, but also to the kinds of people in your field and small business. They are not really validating a strategy, but have been employing it for quite some time.
daveinla
on Apr 1, 2008
Wow Paul, a long way you've come to write this post !! You got it all right this time by looking at the important numbers and not the other one... by comparing market share where Apple competes and not where Apple is absent. That males a little bit more sense I think.
daveinla
on Apr 1, 2008
... I just hope this post was not an April's fools of yours !!! ;-p
johnpapola
on Apr 1, 2008
"And I know a ton of people that come home to a Windows computer and are happily served. What's your point?" My point is simply that the Mac is a totally viable platform for people that use Windows at work. There are plenty of people that claim "everyone needs windows" and that's demonstrably false. "Remember that people that can't afford a Mac are people too, and they deserve a computer just as much as anyone else." I think you're mistaking me for a PC basher. I'm not. I'm not a zealot like Waethorn. It's great that the PC offers these choices and it's no judgement on the people that buy them and use them happily. I'm simply pointing out that Apple's approach is viable and sustainable. As for strategy validation, I think the market does a great job of that all by itself, really. Apple's strategy has been rewarded with profits that exceed dell's and the market cap to match, which has rewarded Apple's shareholders. Nobody wants to be in the commodity business with tech. It's a downward spiral that makes investment and R&D and therefore differentiation impossible. You must admit that Dell hasn't had the same degree of success lately, what with their stock at HALF it's 5 year high and their CEO booted to bring back Michael. This has been all about Dell's race to the bottom of the margin game. Remember, Michael Dell once said that if he were Jobs in 1997, he'd have closed down Apple and given their money back to the shareholders. That cut deep, and the irony of where both companies are today is hard to ignore. Just compare the graphics on Google. Dell looks flat-lined for 10 years compared to Apple. Again, my posts are all about rebutting the anti-mac crowd, not pushing an anti-PC agenda or converting people. There's obviously room for both platforms in the market and the competition is healthy. And ultimately, this is all about rebutting the focus on Apple tiny worldwide share, since it 's meaningless for users and investors.
cesjr
on Apr 1, 2008
It's simply never made any sense to look at these market share numbers that include sales to businesses. If you sell delivery trucks to businesses, would you look at market share numbers that includes your sales along sales of Toyota Camry's? If you sell furniture for people's homes, would you look at market share numbers that include your sales and sales of office furniture? Paul has known for a very, very long time (because many people have pointed it out to him time and time again) that it makes no sense whatsover to look at these PC market share numbers that include sales to business. Apple is not making product for that market. PERIOD. They may incidentally sell a few macs into the small business segment, but it's a handfull. That segment has been and continues to be better served by windows. Windows sells into two markets - business and consumer. Apple sells into just the consumer segment. Anybody with half a brain has known this for years.
Lindy
on Apr 1, 2008
cesjr you are dead on. Apple has started to sell to businesses, the Army is buying some OS X servers I just read..because they are less vulnerable to attacks so says the Army in article. Anyhow 90%+ of Macs are consumer. Flip side Microsoft makes probably 80% of its money off of Office and Windows CAL's to business customers. Man if that is ever threatened.... Paul you love to quote world wide market share. How much of your tiny audience is from the US? I am so what about the other 16? I got some numbers for you. Apple's 2007 revenue was 24 Billion. Microsoft's 2007 revenue was 51 Billion. So if I use your world wide market share #'s of 2.9% for Apple, can I assume then that when Apple reaches 10% world wide market share, they will buy Microsoft, and you will change the name your site to "Applesupersite"???
Lindy
on Apr 1, 2008
Oh and the hardware price comparison....come on. If a consumer is ignorant and just wants the cheapest PC they can find, then they get what they want....even with the sticker that says "Vista compatible".:) I think Apple is slightly more when comparing like specs. Most people dont know or care until they try to do something and cant. The car comparisons are perfect. A Camry is more expensive than a Corrola for a reason.
befuson
on Apr 1, 2008
cesjr... Your auto analogy is completely invalid. Auto companies do, in fact, include fleet, commercial and business sales in their tallies. And rightly so! They're making a product for a market, so why shouldn't they include it? Because another company doesn't sell to that market! Pass the Kool Aid man! - B
Avro
on Apr 1, 2008
Well I am a dual Brit/Canadian citizen serving in the Middle East and have spent about half my life on either side of the pond. The Mac marketshare in Canada is even higher than the US. Paul's article was spot on and was a good correction to balance the world production numbers. The problem with those is that really no choice was involved in about 70% of the figures. For most of us consumer retail is where it is at and there the market is much as Paul has outlined. I am mainly a Mac User but use Windows at the Office and until very recently Ubuntu on the road. Last year I was looking for a laptop to replace my old Dell and price wise the MacBook was just a bit too much even with an education discount. I was all set to buy a Dell pre-loaded with Ubuntu for about £400 and at the beginning of July 07 I came across a 2G MacBook clearance at £440 and snapped it up. Dell has some good consumer offers but their website stinks. I found one computer with links to 3 lowest prices on one page????? You have to hunt around to find their Linux site. I signed up to their email offers months ago and still have not received one email. I am not surprised that they are downsizing in spite of having a very good product. If the lowest price point is important to you than the PC (with Linux or Windows) gets the nod every time but if you are comparing feature for feature there is not a lot in it. What gets me annoyed is that I come across so many people who do not even consider a Mac because someone has told them that they are expensive and then you discover that they have paid well even more for their low cost PC and often with Vista they are having to face buying new peripherals. In the UK the BBC was using the 3% of the market argument for not offering its iPlayer for Macs. When questioned about what percentage of hits on their website came from Macs the shamefaced reply was 30%. The BBC is now working on an iPlayer for the Mac and has admitted that it thinks that the Mac market share in the UK is about 10%. I think that this is about right but it could be rather higher. If you are shopping for a low priced solution to computing you need to look at a PC running Windows or Linux but in the mid and upper ranges the Macs are well in the running as a good choice too.
MaryW
on Apr 1, 2008
Paul, it can be so frustrating trying to read your tear-downs of other people's research and statistics. You are always pretty balanced with your commentary on PC quarterly sales figures. However you seem all to quick to tow the party line (at least to start with!) for Microsoft on some of their figures. Vista, XBox, Zune etc. If you wanted to dispute the facts or question the analysis in the article there seemed plenty of REAL ammunition there instead of introducing new points that the story didn't really cover. Do enterprise sales really account for 70% of the PC market? So your "students and other individuals" segment of the market only account for 30% of the market? That would be only 80 million PCs last year. Sounds pretty low to me. If the consumer market is higher then Munster's, then Mac market share would be lower. Munster has a US consumer share of 21% for the Mac. Only a week or so ago NPD put the retail share at 14%. How do those figures tie in? Munster 16% differential between Macs and comparable PCs. Well 16% may not be 30% but it's pretty close to 20% and still seems pretty high. That's something to write about. But no. You accuse the report(s) of "manipulations" and "contorting the numbers". Munster, right up-front, states Apple's total share of the PC market. It's a simple statement of fact that as Apple does little to target the enterprise, most of their computer sales comes from "the rest" of the market. The result. A higher share of "the rest" of the market. I don't know (as stated above) if his figures are accurate, but there is no deception and his logic is sound. I believe it''s fair to talk about Zune's 11% share of the HARD DRIVE mp3 market in the US. Especially when they weren't selling Flash based units. I believe it's fair to talk about Rim dominating the North American smart phone market (around 37%) even when their worldwide share is well down in the single figures. Why, to you, is it unfair to discuss the markets where the Mac is strong? Paul you say: "What's true is that "comparable" PCs and Macs are comparably priced" Munster says: " ...more than COMPARABLE PCs." So he is saying exactly the same as you yet you accuse him of being "completely irrelevant". It's ENTIRELY relevant! The whole article is about how well Apple is doing in the markets that they sell to .... not in the markets that they don't. Apple has obviously made a business decision to not 'play' in the low cost/low profit end of the market. You introduce the 'more choice in the PC sector" argument. So what? No one is denying that. How about your April Fools bit? " ....few Apple fanatics will draw this distinction or have a problem factoring in business sales when they tout that machine's successes.... " This is simply a strawman and I just don't see your point. I have never seen any breakdown of the business/consumer split in smartphone sales. I am pretty sure we won't see such figures. And I am certain we won't get them from Apple. Apple is either going to hit it's 10 million iPhone target ... or it is not. How are these so-called fanatics going to manipulate the figures .... that they won't have? Believe me I am not trying to defend Apple or Munster or Fortune. I just have a hard time understanding how you can be so quick to skew other peoples opinions in such a strange way. My only answer is that coupled with your historic PC based bias you sometimes just jump to your own (and often erratic) conclusions a little too quickly. On a couple of occasions you have even admitted as much yourself.
johnpapola
on Apr 1, 2008
Mary... bravo.
Avro
on Apr 1, 2008
Interesting to note that Ars is predicting today that MS will be announcing that budget laptop builders such as Asus (for the EeePC) will be able to sell PCs with XP the foreseeable future as Vista is not appropriate for such low cost computers. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080401-microsoft-to-give-xp-stay-... Looks like not only Macs are too expensive for the budget market. :-)
halesgarcia
on Apr 1, 2008
Well given that only 5% of the world's population can read your opinion anyway, I'm satisfied knowing that the Mac marketshare us growing in the market that the matters to most me. Maybe you ought to start blogging in Mandarin or Sanskit to reach your intended audience.
DRWAM
on Apr 1, 2008
As the average user in this community, I agree with what Paul is saying about consumers choosing their computer. The average buyer usual doesn't compare the components, but the package as a deal, with minimal emphasis on the components. They see the price and ask 'is it good enough for my budget?', then buy. You geeks look at it differently.
lotsamystuff
on Apr 1, 2008
"Are they comparable? No, not from a specs perspective. But that's not the point, nor is it how people shop. " Remember that the next time you call the Wii a "joke" compared to the xBox. By that logic, the cheaper DELL is a joke compared to every other Mac. Consistency, Mr. Thurrott. Consistency.
Waethorn
on Apr 1, 2008
"what he will find, for example, is that he could buy a low-end Macbook notebook for as low as $1099" sorry to say here Paul, but your analysis is wrong. you can get a Penryn-based Windows PC with more features for at least as cheap as any Mac. low-priced Macbook? no DVD burner there! i haven't seen a single reasonable notebook with only 1GB of RAM and only a DVD combo for over $800 for a very long time, and yet Apple's base model Macbook is $1149 on the Apple Canada store. how about being Centrino-certified? not on Mac's. sorry. Apple doesn't even use proper Intel CPU model numbers, let alone use Intel's own wireless technology. for what it's worth, forget what you know about computer manufacturers. there are really only 4 major computer ODM's on the planet. they are: Quanta, Compal, Clevo, and ASmobile (an OEM division of Asus). Apple systems have been made by ASmobile, and Quanta at different times in the last few years. likewise, so have Dell, HP, and most other "manufacturers". in fact, Quanta sells the new HP model notebook designs (with the silver detailing around the trackpad which is lower in the front) to the channel. so in actuality, i could sell "HP" notebooks under my own brand, and without all the "value-added" crapware. (i choose different models to differentiate my brand though) i sell several designs from the same ODM companies, and for much less than any name-brand. the quality is identical, and in many cases, reliabilty is better, considering that the lots that go to the system builder channel have a higher QA rating (read: lower defect rate), and a longer warranty. so stating that "xyz-brand has better quality, and thus, justifies the price premium" is just deceptive, and full of un-truths. if you really think Apple isn't marking up prices humongously, then how do you explain part upgrade prices over the base models? even compared to Authorized Mac Resellers, they are extremely high! 4GB of RAM is a whopping $500 over 1GB, and i don't care how good a monitor is, but ABSOLUTELY NO 23" monitor is worth $1049!!! sorry, but Apple is gouging customers. "Anyone who believes otherwise is, well, a fool." ....there. that fits the context better. if you think those are realistic prices, then you're completely out to lunch. for a comparison, one of my own system configurations offers an identical base to the Macbook 2.1GHz (the "Penryn" T8100, which is the model number of the chip), only with a few [modest] upgrades. first off, add a second gig of RAM, then upgrade that 120GB to a 160GB hard drive, swap out that DVD combo for a *real* DVD drive - a DVD burner, ExpressCard 54 support, 2 extra USB ports, SPDIF out, a built in dial-up modem, extended warranty and support. how much does Apple charge for those upgrades? well, for the upgrades that are possible - the extra gig, the 160GB hard drive, the modem, and the extended warranty (but you're still left with a DVD combo, and less connectivity) - Apple charges an insane $500 extra. how much extra do I charge for those upgrades over the baseline Macbook 2.1GHz price? nothing. nada. zip. zero. zilch.
Lindy
on Apr 1, 2008
johnpapola
on Apr 1, 2008
Waethorn, You're right about Apple's ram and drive upgrade pricing... which is why no Apple buyer upgrades the stock ram from Apple. Their displays are also overpriced. I agree. There's a whole host of Mac-centric online stores providing upgrades to fill that need. I upped our family Macbooks to 4GB of ram for $99. Oh... what's that? Mainstream Vista can't support 4GB of ram? Oh well. Leopard can happily handle 32Gb and beyond right now. But, again, comparisons between Apple systems and comparably name-branded machines come up right around Gene Munster's chart. There's a 10 to 15% premium. Though I believe the Mac Pro workstations still beat the competition when paired with third party ram and drives (which, again, everyone does). But, you see, Apple is doing what they should be... charging the maximum price the market will bear. If you don't think it's worth it, you don't buy it. But they're growing their market share and have a significant share of their target market, so it looks like people seem to be happy with the value. Of course, you never put a price on the bundled iLife suite, which has no equal on Windows, or the lack of need (for now) for anti-virus and spyware software/subscriptions (though that will likely change). No matter, though. The market is speaking and Apple is selling plenty of systems at a growth rate that's triple the PC industry.
Avro
on Apr 1, 2008
@ Waethorn Any Mac User is smart enough to get his RAM from Crucial or OWC. Your prices look really inflated. My MacBook was £440, about $880 from my home and native land where you reside. Intel certified wireless? Why would I want that when Airport is just soooo much better? My best friend "Old Thrifty" paid £750 for his "low cost" Windows laptop and my MacBook can get a full signal anywhere in his house, but he is limited to being near the wireless router. Don't forget the cost of total ownership and when you start piling on the £'s (or $'s) for the lack of an iLife suite, the price goes up. Don't forget that people keep their Macs for longer too. I am writing this post on a 2001 Quicksilver running the latest Leopard. Try that on your Beige Box.
lotsamystuff
on Apr 1, 2008
@ Avro: "I am writing this post on a 2001 Quicksilver running the latest Leopard." Best system Apple ever made, IMHO. I own two of them, and they're absolute workhorses.
Cfischer83
on Apr 1, 2008
ok... Besides Garage Band, what exactly does iLife have that a computer running Vista does not have? Photo Gallery, Movie Maker, Media Player, Media Center are all better than the iLife alternatives.... Remember too that iTunes runs on Windows. The only leg up iLife has is that iDVD is better than DVD Maker. So please "enlighten" me.
drylight
on Apr 1, 2008
drylight
on Apr 1, 2008
This is the typical Windows fanboy's line.. "It's not Windows, it's the drivers" http://movies.apple.com/movies/us/apple/getamac/apple_getamac_breakthrou... Usual pathetic lines from the Windows fanboys. They use it with a straight face. Hilarious.
DRWAM
on Apr 2, 2008
Sorry but I need to jump in again because all of you are incorrect. The average Mac user does not buy any upgrades, but simply buys the stock configuration. I have numerous friends with Macs, and have had only one upgrade anything, but only because I instructed and helped him to optimize his Pro Tower for backup and Windows. If I did not suggest it, he would still have the stock config without upgrades. But yes, we did not buy the RAM or drives from Apple due to the price gouge. I have priced similar parts to build at home, and show savings. But when considering time to assemble and load software, you get mighty close, IMO. Last time that I built a computer, it was assembled in about 30 minutes to one hour, but still needed software. But I was building it in between sets while lifting weights.
Dipsh t Admin
on Apr 2, 2008
"Any Mac User is smart enough to get his RAM from Crucial or OWC" Any GEEK user. I thought Mac's are just supposed to work, and that they are the complete package? ;) Non-technical users will buy their RAM through the manufacturer so that it is already installed and ready to go. Of course if you want to self-install extra memory in your MacBook Air... crickets. "or the lack of need (for now) for anti-virus and spyware software/subscription" That can be easily covered for free. AVG and Avast FTW. "growth rate that's triple the PC industry." I'll give them the kudos they deserve for achieving this, but this is somewhat of a weak argument. It's much easier to dramatically increase sales when you work with a smaller starting number. Because of their size, Dell or HP simply cannot match those growth rates.
Lindy
on Apr 2, 2008
I have helped many people buy computers over the years, Windows and Mac's. None of them has asked "I think I should get more RAM or a bigger HD with that".....not once. My brother n law just got a new Penryn Black Mackbook and just went with the standard config, which is now 2gigs of RAM and a 250gig HD. He never asked about hardware, only could I move his email and music. I have recommended it and always, PC or Mac I got it someplace else, like NewEgg. PC vendors used to gouge as well, and are still higher than buying the parts from New Egg or some other place.
solaranox
on Apr 2, 2008
Cfischer83 said: "Besides Garage Band, what exactly does iLife have that a computer running Vista does not have? Photo Gallery, Movie Maker, Media Player, Media Center are all better than the iLife alternatives" What? Are you kidding? iPhoto is WAY BETTER than Photo Gallery. I just migrated 20K photos from Phtoto Gallery to iPhoto because of this. iPhoto makes it MUCH easier to organize and add keywords to photos. Plus, it allows you to create Books, Calanders, Cards, and create photo staionary in emails. All functions that Photo Gallery just doesn't have. iMovie (Both 06 and 08), is leaps and bounds better than Movie Maker. Just try making/editing an HD movie with Windows Movie Maker! Even with a VERY high end PC, its performace just stinks. It can barely even import HD from an HDV tape, and it just doesn't even support AVCHD, the most popular consumer HD format. Add in that iMovie has MUCH better editing features and it is a no Brainer. Media Player and iTunes? They are equal at best. Media Center and Apple Front Row. I give it to Windows Media Center. Unless you go 3rd party, Front Row doesn't support recording live TV.
solaranox
on Apr 2, 2008
"I thought Mac's are just supposed to work, and that they are the complete package? ;)" Actually... They do. There is NO NEED to upgrade the RAM on any of the Macs. With the included hardware, you can run all of the functionality on all of the iLife suite. I just tested my Wife's base Macbook and it can handle editing HD video in Imovie with no problem. Heck, I can't even come close to the same performance editing HD with MovieMaker on my PC with a 2.66 Core2, 3GB ram, and Raid 0 Hard Drives! (But that PC does play some awesome games.)
Waethorn
on Apr 2, 2008
"Mainstream Vista can't support 4GB of ram?" actually Windows Vista Business, Enterprise, and Ultimate support up to 128GB, which no iMac or Macbook supports because they use mobile chipsets. no PC notebook does either for that matter, but x64 versions happily support 4GB, which is what currently use on my notebook. meanwhile, I've been selling mid-range quad-core workstations with Intel Core 2 Quad desktop processors with 8GB of RAM (the maximum supported RAM for most desktop motherboards) for much less than the cheapest Mac Pro....FYI, I did sell a custom-built insane 8-core Xeon rackmount system that was being used for 3D modelling/simulations and simultaneous HD video rendering services with Vista Ultimate x64 that included 64GB of RAM, and Vista saw every single MB. FYI, that's TWICE (ie. 2 times) the amount of memory that you claim OS X supports. likewise, it's 16x the amount of memory you claim that Vista supports. "Of course, you never put a price on the bundled iLife suite, which has no equal on Windows, or the lack of need (for now) for anti-virus and spyware software/subscriptions (though that will likely change)." Windows Live + Works is iLife's equal, and then some. sorry, but you have to pay extra for .Mac. Most shoppers buy Office 2007 when they try the demo out though, and the OEM versions are still cheaper than Apple's retail-only versions. As far as antivirus goes, all my systems come with a 1 year subscription to OneCare. For all of $40/year for 3 computers, that still works out to less than OS X upgrades over the same timeframe. "But yes, we did not buy the RAM or drives from Apple due to the price gouge." straight from the horse's mouth (no offense, doc). thanks for proving my point. "Add in that iMovie has MUCH better editing features and it is a no Brainer." ya, you know, cuz iMovie '08 doesn't have a timeline, the Mackie apologists would call it "streamlined".
Lindy
on Apr 2, 2008
"Media Player and iTunes? They are equal at best." No way in hell. Media Player if functional and has no real problems. Its interface and feature set pale in comparison to iTunes. iTunes has everything. Its store is 1000% better, Pod casts, cleaner/easier interface, burn CD with CD text info so you can rip them back to rid your self of DRM and have tracks with info, not "Track 01" The only thing Media Player has over iTunes is the ability to monitor a folder. Having music on a central computer/server/nas in a house is managed easier with media players ability to monitor a folder for new music. iTunes requires that I add it to my library. Not a huge hassle but an extra step. iLife, is strong for two reasons. 1. Intergration...building a simple website in iWeb, you can pull music from iTunes, photos fro iPhoto, Movies from iMovie, contacts from address book...to include whole play lists you created in iTunes, or photo albums you created in iPhoto. Can you pull photos from Photoshop elements, or a playlist from Zune software while creating a web page in Front page? Umm NO. Add to this third party apps like MS Office extend he integration, media from the iApps can be dropped tapped into by Powerpoint, Word, Excel...etc. 2. This is the most basic concept of OS X and that is....Mac users always manipulate their data in the applications ie, photos in iPhoto, music in iTunes...etc. Windows users tend to use a file manager to get at their data/organize it. I see switchers struggle because the want to open my documents, my photos, to see their photos organized in folders they have created, browse thumbnails and then open a picture from file manager. OS X/iLife shields the user or tries to by having them go into iPhoto to see/manipulate photos.
DRWAM
on Apr 2, 2008
The extra expense for anti virus software is no longer a valid issue. It's not just because there are free utilities, but most ISP provide it free as well. Comcast [a big one] gives the free McAfee suite, which protects against practically everything. I do note one thing, a refurb high end 2.8 GHz 8 or 3.0GHz 4 core Pro Tower with a 3 year Apple cares warranty with 2GB RAM and either a ATI1900XT or 2400 costs only $2548. Pretty good deal. If someone wanted a Mac, that's what I would do. Also, I actually recommend a cheap PC to any friend without kids and a need for high end apps. With the free McAfee or other apps, they can buy a new one every 1.5 years, [then give me the left overs]. Also. did you ever here of Zipzoomfly.com for parts? No tax!!!!
Avro
on Apr 2, 2008
@ Waethorn "Every year, Apple issues a new iLife upgrade, and every year, I stare in wonder at my Mac's monitor, noting the improvements and wondering why Microsoft and the PC industry can't create something as impressive as iLife for the Windows realm. " quote from Paul Thurrott @lotsofmystuff The G4 Quicksilver is being turned into a home server and should soldier on for many more years. @drwam 'Sorry but I need to jump in again because all of you are incorrect. The average Mac user does not buy any upgrades, but simply buys the stock configuration' I think you missed a calling as a stand-up comedian. :-) Perhaps there is some granny in Peoria who is like this, but hardly the typical Mac User. One of the things that Paul Thurrott has noted is that the average Mac User is much more of a geek than a typical Windows User (WW 38 18 - 20 mins) . "OS X is aimed at more technical users. OS X assumes a certain amount of sophistication. There is a slightly higher barrier of entry". Simple reason Mac OS X is Unix and there is a lot of power there. Here in England a Windows fanboy journalist has noted that the big difference with Mac Users is that they actually go out and buy computer apps. That is why the small Mac SW houses and Mac shareware community is thriving. Take a look at Barebones SW, the Omni Group, Crucial, and Other World Computing. If Mac Users were not spending money they simply would not exist. "But there is one difference that has me tempted to move over myself, and that is the existence of a real software market on the Mac. On Windows, this hardly exists. I know that sounds an outrageous statement, since there are hundreds of thousands of programs available for PCs. But almost all of these sell in tiny quantities: all the stuff you actually need to run your life on a Windows computer is either free or compulsory. ... With the exception of some copy-protected music and graphics programs and some high-end programming tools, there's no more need to spend money on modern Windows software than there is on Linux; the cynic might say there was even less need, since I would pay happily for Linux software that was responsive to users' needs and not programmers'. But Mac users do pay for the software they use. They even pay for their operating system upgrades. There is much less of a tradition of cost- bundling on Macs than on Windows, and the result has been that software is built to appeal to people spending their own money. There are real alternatives to Microsoft Word, not just from Apple, such as (Mellel), a word processor for people who write books. There is an abundance of notetaking programs: this is also an area where there is a market on the PC, but it seems much less vigorous and innovative than on the Mac, partly because everything that grows sufficiently complex to be useful withers under the shadow of Outlook. I know that Apple, just like Microsoft, has crushed utility programs by incorporating their functions into the operating system; but it has not been as strong, and so its malevolence has done less harm. Perhaps the smaller size of the Mac marketplace explains its vigour and diversity. Most of the really interesting and useful programs in the world seem to have been produced by five people or fewer. There is no substitute for a programmer who talks with his customers directly, and they will only exist in a market where the customers are the users, and not the people running the users' employers' IT departments." http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/feb/07/apple.software
johnpapola
on Apr 2, 2008
Waethorn, Does Vista Home Premium support 4GB of ram? Paul has been recommending against using 64bit Vista due to a lack of drivers, and most people aren't going to buy Ultimate or Business. What about processor cores? Does Microsoft still artificially limit the number of processors the "lesser" versions of Windows can see in another effort to screw customers? Paul has opening criticized this bifurcated OS strategy as anti-consumer, so if you defend it you really are an MS apologist. Of course, OSX doesn't bother with this confusing array of versions designed to "upsell" and gouge consumers with higher ASPs for unlocking code, so it's a non-issue. As for the upper limit of OSX ram support... it's a 64bit OS, so I think it's in the terabytes. Of course, as of right now, the most you can get is 32GB in a mac pro, so beyond that isn't very relevant. What's more relevant is that the average consumer appears to be able to use more ram in their machines off-the-shelf. There is an advantage in having 4GB over 3GB for a consumer machine. And again, you contradict yourself from earlier threads regarding the PC market and Microsoft's ability to reboot their efforts. I said that I believed MS could pretty successfully do a clean start because there's no longer that much hardware diversity. You jumped all over me with talk of tiny custom driver tweaks. Yet here you are saying that there's really only 4 major ODMs and you're claiming that the brand names are just adding stickers to a tiny group machines. So which is it? I think you're right, that there isn't much hardware diversity at the architecture level anymore and if Apple can successfully reboot their OS, relegating legacy apps to virtualization, than so can Microsoft. Of course, Apple isn't like the other hardware makers. They may be using these same contractors, but they're having them build Apple's custom designs, not using off-the-shelf reference. Much has been written about how uniquely hard Apple is on their manufacturers, demanding a level of precision and unique use of materials that no other PC maker bothers with. That you're unable to note the superiority of iLife shows that you don't know anything about using the software and are, once again, drawing your conclusions for vendor spec sheets. As Avro just did, a simple search for Paul's reviews of iLife show that he's on our side of that issue in a major way. iLife has no equal on windows. Period. Avro, Awesome post. Great job pointing out the truth about Mac software. Third party Mac software is amazing, in part because of Apple's design leadership and developers willingness to push the limits with the latest OS tech. I believe the windows software market is in stasis because of the Microsoft chilling effect. Too many developers have been burned by relying on MS tech only to have it changed under their feet, or have MS bundle in software with Windows that kills them off. The Windows software ecosystem has largely consolidated into Microsoft, Adobe, Intuit and a small handful of others like Autodesk, etc. The great majority of software titles made by small devs can't seem to hold a candle to the Mac indie community. Of course, Apple sometimes kills these companies too, but usually they do so by buying the company or hiring the developer (itunes, coverflow, etc.). Microsoft seems to just do it themselves and let the companies die. Plus, the paper-vaporware tactics that MS has used to chill the market hasn't helped either.
DRWAM
on Apr 2, 2008
Avro, with all due respect, I can't disagree more about consumer upgrading Macs. I have so many friends with Macs that they are too numerous to count. Only one has ever upgraded and only because I suggested it. Lindy shares the same experience. In fact, they all have bought almost no additional software as well. Office suites are about it. There is an occasional iPod utility that they have asked me, otherwise nothing. I mentioned Toast to some of them and they have never heard of it! They just don't use it much for anything but the iApps [esp iTunes], word processing, email and web surfing. That's it, and most have iMacs or Macbooks and iBooks. I think that you hard core geeks think that we all want to control the world with our Macs [well OK, you can control your own world with harmony, so I'll give you that] but all of my numerous friends [I'm very popular] use it for the above list only. You would actually be shocked it the litttle knowledge that they know, but that's exactly why they bought the Mac, because it is so easy to use and has fewer problems [than their old XP or 98 boxes]. Anyway, yes I would like to become a comedian. They make more money and have groupies! Sweet!
subzerohitman721
on Apr 2, 2008
I still believe that while Apple has made tremendous improvements in both the hardware and OS side, ignoring the bargan basement market is foolish. The sheer numbers of the low end PC market do end up gaining you profit traction by numbers. The mass majority of users will not cough up in today's market over a grand for a PC or a notebook. Today's very money concious consumer is looking for a PC that can do everything they need plus save them a few bucks. This is why Microsoft maintains their lead. If Jobs and Co. cannot get the product to the cheap market, Microsoft simply wins by numbers. With everyone but Apple selling to the lowest common denominators, its simple mathematics. In the era of $3.00 plus gasoline, mortgage meltdowns, grocery bills rising, etc..... A thousand dollar Mac is a car payment and several other bills too expensive for the average joe. Apple will gain ground amonst the rich and well off, the average joe will still use what his company is using. Place your bets, but in 2009 when companies start adopting Vista, we'll see a pick up in consumer sales of Vista preloaded machines. As for Dell, they really do need to figure out what they are doing wrong. With the combination of phone support that tedious and frustraiting, I wouldn't do business with Dell period. I'm still waiting for Apple to release a version of OS-X for non Mac-hardware based PC's. If they really want to stop Microsoft, make the OS for the rest of us. Then we'll really see if head to head, who becomes the champion in Microsoft vs Apple. I contend with the lead Microsoft has on working with it, that Apple wouldn't execute that very well. Too bad it will never happen.
DRWAM
on Apr 2, 2008
Subzero, I wonder if a cheap Mac would take away sales [and thus, profits] from the other model lines. But I see your point as to gaining market share. I don't think the goal should be competing to gain market share, but sustain growth by selling profitable. quality, easy to use stuff. Of course, what the heck does a doctor know? As for Dell, my hardcore PC friend just purchased 3 Dells for his family and is so unhappy, that he mentioned that he was thinking about buying a MacBook Air! He could care less about the absent DVD player. I explained that there are some good competing laptops that are actually less expensive, but his many bad Dell experiences has jaded his opinion of new PC's. I have onlty good experiences with the 3 Vista models [2 Dell] that I have used, but he's is very unhappy. All because of Dell.
Dipsh t Admin
on Apr 2, 2008
I've never liked the Dell laptops that much, but I've been buying Dell desktops for myself and family for years now, and they have all been reliable and good performers. With the new Dell cases, they are a snap (literally) to open and work on.
DRWAM
on Apr 2, 2008
I had the pleasure of setting up a XPS 420 with Vista, Office 2007 and WiFi. It was fast simply and looked very sweet. There is a preview LCD on top. 2.4 GHz quad core, 20in WS monitor with camera, 3GB RAM, ATI 2400 all for $1,100 [1 yr warranty]. Nice machine and price. Fast too. I have been told that it is working fine and the owner is happy. I did delete some of the crapware, but there wasn't much.
Avro
on Apr 2, 2008
@ drwam It is funny but you seem to have described most of my Windows owning friends. They pop down to PC World (Brit computer superstore) and buy whatever the 18 year old 'expert' salesman recommends and never buy any software or hardware until they have to make another trip to the computer superstore when Windows is giving them aggravation or the old computer has just died. The Mac owning friends, computer geek techs and university colleagues I have are always looking at some way of enhancing their experience with upgrading, additional hardware or software. I used to have a Dell latitude and while it wasn't bad on XP it was better on Ubuntu. Service was pretty terrible, two power supplies bit the dust and it took them 2 weeks to replace them and their service was a pain in the backside. The dog ate the MacBook power supply and it was replaced in 3 hours. I know where I am putting my money. We have a very good comedian by the name of Harry Hill and he is a former surgeon. http://www.harry-hill.tv/intro.html @subzerohitman I cannot agree with you there. The budget end of the market is usually just one step above starvation. That is why BMW is still around and the Yugo is no more. Wafer thin margins means that when there is a downturn in the market, people just stop buying because the type of buyer you have appealed to doesn't have much cash (or credit) to begin with. $3 gallon gasoline!!!! Wait until it is $3 a litre like the rest of the world pays now! It looks like Enterprise may well give Vista a miss and wait until Windows 7. Don't forget too that the long term costs of Macs are lower than Windows PCs. Apple would be wise to stick with their market and leave the bargain basement stuff to others. They don't have to beat Microsoft in marketshare to have big profits and it looks like they are making some inroads into the Enterprise area too. http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/operating_systems/windows_a_monop... @johnpapola The software point is very big. Microsoft software is made for Enterprise and does a pretty good job there. What it is less well suited for is the Home User and creative professionals. I am very happy for my secretary to use MS Office but absolutely delighted that I create my work on Scrivener and Keynote. The Mac software situation is awesome and getting better every day. It provides me with apps that I really need. As Leo Laporte says "Macs for the home, Windows for Enterprise". Not a bad combination at all.
DRWAM
on Apr 2, 2008
Avro, my Windows friends are the same, except for 3 geeks. Most of my friends could barely set up a computer, and end up asking for my help, Windows and Mac alike. It's a pain and now that I have 3 kids, it's getting more difficult to help them. Three have actually paid a local computer geek company to set them up. However, they are some of the finest doctors that you could ever need. One mammography expert replaced parts while instructed by a Dell rep in India. She had no clue what they were, but did as instructed. I was impressed as she usually calls me for everything, but it was a hardware failure under warranty. My buddy with the 3 new Dells told me that 2 were Towers and one was a laptop, and they spent hours on the phone with customer service for problems with each one. Although most of the friends that bought from Dell have few complaints recently. Kids are home. Gotta go.
Waethorn
on Apr 2, 2008
"building a simple website in iWeb, you can pull music from iTunes, photos fro iPhoto, Movies from iMovie, contacts from address book...to include whole play lists you created in iTunes, or photo albums you created in iPhoto." last time i looked, Windows Live Spaces supported all of this, and you can post photos and videos from Windows Live Photo Gallery. oh what's that? oh yes, you have to pay an extra Apple tax to host your .Mac website. "Does Vista Home Premium support 4GB of ram?" actually, it supports up to 16GB, which is more than any current desktop motherboards supports. even Home Basic x64 supports 8GB. "Of course, as of right now, the most you can get is 32GB in a mac pro, so beyond that isn't very relevant." except when you're trying to make it an argument point to try to say that Windows is somehow inferior, even though now I can say outright that YOU ARE WRONG! as I have already proven, the demand is there for more memory. the fact that Apple isn't addressing that demand is showing their ignorance of the market (and another lost sale for them, that i graciously accepted). "Paul has been recommending against using 64bit Vista due to a lack of drivers" that may have been true at release with older hardware, but any new hardware that is "Certified for Windows Vista" (i can't find any new hardware that isn't) must support both 32-bit and 64-bit versions equally. likewise for software. "You jumped all over me with talk of tiny custom driver tweaks. Yet here you are saying that there's really only 4 major ODMs and you're claiming that the brand names are just adding stickers to a tiny group machines...." you completely forgot the point that OEM's can customize the firmware on ODM hardware....AND the fact that those drivers ARE tweaked to accomodate those pieces of hardware, as well as the fact that computer "manufacturers" can call up one of these major ODM's and say "i want a system with this in it....and i want x-thousand units" and get it customized for them. i don't have that option myself. just because there are 4 major notebook ODM's doesn't mean there isn't a possibility for an almost endless stream of differing configurations. "Of course, Apple isn't like the other hardware makers. They may be using these same contractors, but they're having them build Apple's custom designs, not using off-the-shelf reference." er, I just explained this. Apple is no different than any other manufacturer. HP uses SOME reference designs, and allows their ODM's to offer them as barebones models. they likely don't care about the intellectual property rights of the overall look and design of those particular models. last time i checked though, i never saw an HP, a Dell, a Toshiba, and an Apple ever look the same, even though they have all at one point or another used the same ODM's. you've been staring their your Apple drinking-goggles too long to notice.
Dipsh t Admin
on Apr 2, 2008
"looks like they are making some inroads into the Enterprise area too." While I won't say "never", but the Enterprise adoption of the Mac just ain't happening. There is only one vendor to buy from, effectively making any sort of competitive bidding impossible, and in any big buy, Windows on and HP or Dell will easily be cheaper. And when you factor in Active Directory, WMI, and an entire industry of applications that make the management, standardization and deployment of Windows as easy and seamless as possible, there is MANY more advantages to going to Windows in the Enterprise. Plus the native apps running against those big SQL and Oracle servers, and the standardization of Office, particularly Excel and related VB functions, are all made to work on Windows.. Now that doesn't mean that they can't carve out a niche, but they have to go up against some pretty big hurdles, the first being Apple itself. And once again I will say it, but DRWAM has some real truth, since he is out of the Geek kingdom. The truth is that most people that buy a computer are really only looking to do a few things on it, such as web surfing, e-mail, light game playing, and some audio/video content. If someone at my company, family, or friends asked me about doing something like creating a blog, I would probably keel over with a heart attack. It would be that surprising. Hopefully DRWAM lives near me and can resuscitate me.
johnpapola
on Apr 2, 2008
Subzero, I think you're missing the point. Market share in and of itself is a meaningless bragging right. Pursuit of market share at the expense of profitability is actually a proven recipe for failure, as countless businesses have proven. It's the lemming business model. I recommend you, and Paul and everyone on this thread, read this paper by Wharton Professors J. Scott Armstrong and Kesten C. Green. http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/papers/1332.pdf In it, they study many many examples of businesses that were harmed or killed by this objective of chasing competitors off a margins cliff in pursuit of share. Now, in the computing world, there is a third party network effect that you need in order for your platform to be viable. If your installed base is too small, there won't be enough support from third parties for it to viable and a downward sales spiral will occur. But what most of you don't understand, is that Apple is doing exactly what they should be for the good of the platform and it's users. They're expanding the Mac market while being highly profitable, enabling the resources to invest in the future of the platform. The mac installed base is big enough to offer plenty third party support for viability for most users. Beyond that, there's no reason for Apple to enter businesses like ultra-low end machines or enterprise desktops that will harm their brand and their support. Dell sells low-margin corporate desktops as a loss leader to get the high-margin servers and service contracts. IBM found it wasn't even worth it to do that, and sold their PC business to focus strictly on the service side. If IBM decided that enterprise computing wasn't a good business to be in any longer, why exactly should Apple care about it when they're doing so well without it? As Jobs has said, Apple has put the operational and staff resources that would have gone into managing a low-end mac business into products like the iPod. That investment has clearly been smart for the company and had a halo effect on the Mac. What Apple understands well, and Microsoft clearly needs to learn, is that you can't do everything and do it well. You need to focus. Apple's product lineup reflects a simplicity of choice that is a reflection of their focus and their brand. It's easy to pick a mac. It's easy to shop on apple.com or in the stores. It's the opposite of Dell's nightmarishly complex lineup and webstore. There's no crazy model numbers to decipher. No model lines that are confusingly similar. Pick up "The Paradox of Choice" when you get some time. It's instructive reading. One could argue that there's a hole in their desktop lineup for a headless, upgradeable tower (single quad-core minitower with PCIe graphics card - aka a gamer box). But it's my guess that Apple has determined that market to be too small now to put the resources into for a solid ROI. Consumers are moving to laptops, so Apple's focus is there, with their desktops designed to marry what people like about laptops plus the power and screen size of the desktop... the iMac. But the facts are the facts. Apple's Mac business is thriving based on what they're doing right now. If you think you can build a more successful or profitable computer business than they have, I welcome you to try.
johnpapola
on Apr 2, 2008
Waethorn, I thought Home Premium 32bit didn't support 4GB of ram. And as of the latest podcasts, I believe Paul was still saying not to run 64bit as a consumer. Am I wrong? Also, what about processor support? Can you have a dual proc machine with Home Premium 32bit? I believe it only saw one of the procs on my 8-core mac pro, which was incredibly angering to see. If that's true, it a rip off that you can't logically deny. Still, I'm not qualified to debate you on your business. If you want to believe that Microsoft is simply incapable of making a clean break from the past due to "firmware tweaks", I'll just chalk it up to pessimism. Or maybe you think Windows and its ecosystem is just perfect the way it is. Fine. There's plenty of people that don't agree... like most of the tech press and a great number of Vista users according to every survey I've seen. And I don't find this "firmware tweaks" argument to hold much water anyway. If Microsoft did a refresh with Windows 7 and it only worked with new hardware, I can't imagine the driver rollout would be any worse that the problems they've had with Vista. I'll let Paul's many many reviews and adulations speak for themselves regarding iLife and it's superiority of execution. You'll clearly never listen to a word a Mac user says about anything. I'm just not sure what you're doing in this thread (or any of them) anymore. You can't really call it debate, because you never stay on the subject. Perhaps you're just trying to market your PC business, but that doesn't seem likely given your location and the nature of these threads being mac-centric. We get it, man. You think Macs are a rip off. 20% of US consumers disagree with you. So it looks to me like straight-up trolling. Given, this is Paul's windows supersite blog, so it's your turf. But this is a post about Apple market share, and I don't see much reason for you to care. I care because I love the mac platform and I'm a follower of Paul's work and commentary. So snipe at me all you want, bud. It's not nearly as interesting as the real conversations going on with the rest of the community on this site that discusses the topic at hand.
Lindy
on Apr 2, 2008
"I thought Home Premium 32bit didn't support 4GB of ram" at or just under 4GB....provided your chipset can see the RAM. Basically anything with a intel 965 or better for consumers equipment can support 4gig or more. 945 and below 2.8 - 3.5gig depending upon your vendors BIOS and such. On a Macbook/Macbook Pro/iMac that basically meant the Santa Rosa chipset. The new Penryn CPU's are using the Santa Rosa chipsets still. The Mini needs a chipset upgrade baaaad. It rumored and would be nice. Great little home server in a tiny box:)
Waethorn
on Apr 2, 2008
"I thought Home Premium 32bit didn't support 4GB of ram." just as Lindy said - it's a restriction of the chipset, and 32-bit architecture in general. PCI Express uses 7/8's of that last GB of RAM in your system, you'll see exactly 3.125GB or 3200MB (unless your system reserves an extra 2MB of memory for audio, which is fairly common). 32-bit architecture can only address 4GB in total, and hardware addressing overlaps physical memory addresses. PAE supports remapping memory addresses above 4GB in 32-bit mode, but is fairly unstable, and very incompatible with a lot of hardware (especially video cards). 64-bit mode doesn't require PAE. "And as of the latest podcasts, I believe Paul was still saying not to run 64bit as a consumer." prove it. the last thing that Paul has recorded in text to justify your claim was written 6 months ago. http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_1yr_x64.asp now with the release of more compatibility updates since then, and Service Pack 1, it's no longer an issue. i no longer sell systems with x86 versions of Windows Vista as of the release of SP1, and not a single customer has complained about compatibility issues. the only relevant software that Microsoft makes that people might miss is the Windows Live Family Safety add-on, which updates the Windows Vista Parental Controls features, or in the case of XP, adds them in fresh. the built-in Windows Vista Parental Controls are still far superior to what Apple has in OS X though. "Also, what about processor support? Can you have a dual proc machine with Home Premium 32bit? I believe it only saw one of the procs on my 8-core mac pro, which was incredibly angering to see." no. dual-cpu machines are only supported on Business, Enterprise, or Ultimate. and all I have to say about that is TOO BAD! since Home Premium is designed for consumer use, i'd like to go ahead and ask you exactly how many consumer Mac users have dual-processor machines? oh that's right....absolutely no Macbook or iMac supports those. i guess your recourse is to argue that "consumers will buy high-end $2800+ Mac Pro machines if Apple tells them to" (ya....right!), although in the Windows world, equivalent high-end machines would ship with Windows Ultimate x64, and for less money. also, i'd like to point out that even though Windows Vista supports 4GB of RAM on 32-bit systems, DRWAM has been unable to see more than 2GB. i rake that up to poor design (or sabotaged compatibility to goad users into using OS X). let's face it, you lost the argument about maximum RAM, so you're just grasping at straws here. "If Microsoft did a refresh with Windows 7 and it only worked with new hardware, I can't imagine the driver rollout would be any worse that the problems they've had with Vista." now YOU'RE contradicting yourself. "20% of US consumers disagree with you." it's only 2.67% worldwide though. i guess US marketshare really doesn't count for much after all eh? ;)

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