Apple: Get ‘em when they’re young

@mikegalos - If you are including me in your irrational rant about the "Apple - fans in residence" feeling that it is a valid part of a good education then you need to retract your statements along with your idiotic question "What hell-hole of a school district did you suffer through?" because you obviously know absolutely nothing about what I think or where I went to school. Also, your comment, "This explains so much about the "knowledge and competence are bad" theme that's become so pervasive in society over the last few decades and justified considering George W. Bush and Sarah Palin as acceptable leaders." is way off base, dude. You know that the teachers union that supports the dumbing down of our children have been supporting the most liberal democrats in the house, senate, and executive branch of the government for decades, right? Remember, 1+1 only equals 2...3 is not "good enough" nor does it deserve any credit for the "effort". A personal example of this kind of crap was when my daughter was in 5th grade and brough home her math homework during the first week of school. There was a word problem to solve in the assignment from the text book that was in Spanish. She did not know Spanish at that point in her life and asked me for help. I told her to take it back to school and have the Math teacher translate it for her, then she could do the problem. There was absolutely no reason to have that problem in Spanish in Math class. None, what-so-ever! This is what the NEA feels necessary to do...graduating illiterate kids from high school is not right. And don't give me any crap about "No Child Left Behind" being a Republican Act....we all know who wrote it...the drunk from Massachusetts and the idiot from California. GET OVER YOURSELF, MAN!!! --tayme

Teaching kids they can do cool stuff with a computer is great. Sure, I hate the "it is only good if it is open source" and the "it is only good if it is Apple" crowds, but just getting some kids to appreciate computers for more then just Facebook/MySpace/YouTube is a good thing. Too many of my peers are unaware of how to do anything really productive with a computer, let alone with the mechanics of how one works. At very least they need to learn they can create or even at very, very least, game, on their computers. The first computer I used was an old Apple computer of some sort in Kindergarten way back in the mid-nineties. My interest in computers snowballed over time, and here I am. So while I don't think this is quite the Coke machine you make it out to be due to my early experience with computers being helpful to me, I understand the branding issues and targeting that goes on there. If you don't like corporations writing the curriculum for your children, put more funding into schools, or of course, homeschool. The teachers have little resources, and when they have nowhere else to turn, the corporations are right behind them to pick up the slack, and of course, brand their brands into the minds of the youth. Is it evil? Is it wrong? In my opinion, less so with a computer company; I've read what the food companies do to target kids, with "science curriculum" being "slotted spoon tests" between spaghetti sauces (being no more then thinly disguised marketing). Hyping computers to kids doesn't seem as bad in comparison. I did check out the link you gave to the fieldtrip page, and the thing that got me most was the limit on class size was 25 students. I can't remember a class in grade school that small. But meh, it is a small detail amongst the arguments of those attacking and defending Apple over another small detail.

@ mdsharpe Really? Even if it was educational? What if they took them to a macdonalds? You rather see your kids get fat and die from hear desease? You want them to be bored. Some parrent you are. A trip to the apple store doesnt mean they go all over and play games and get on wired websites. You were to damn lazzy to read the entire point.what are you 65? Computers are the feature, and as paul said "get them while they are young" meaning, dont wait till someone like you tells them when or when not they can use a computer to do 95% of school work that is down today.

Also branding is a part of life. the kids will eventery be exposded to branding. get used to it people. this is lifem, dont like it, theres the door, dont let it hit you on the way out

Do you have to compare everything to the worst available option to justify it? Case in point - this field trip could have been compared to a field trip to the museum, which is truly educational. But, no - you want to talk about a field trip to McDonalds. Why not make it worse? Field trip to a coke dealer? Field trip to a bar? See, a field trip to Apple is better than all of that.

"Hehe, I remember my school ussed to take the kids to Alton Towers (a large british theme park) at the end of each school year, basically as a treat." I went to a theme park in high school too. Of course, it was for a MUSIC COMPETITION. Schools in neighbouring districts competed too. It took up most of the morning, and we were only there until 4, so it's not like we had much time to ride the rides. Luckily it was early in the year on a weekday, so there were next to no lineups at the rides. It wasn't free either. We still had to pay ~1/2 of the general admission price (about $19 at the time). It was just a good place to do it though, because it was (and still is) one of the biggest (and cheapest) outdoor amphitheatres to rent. Groups can rent it for practically nothing, but scheduling has to be done no less than 6 months ahead of time because of demand. Students pay half price on gen admission, and most of that goes to the rental fee of the amphitheatre, so it's a pretty good deal for most schools. Re: McRaunchy's If I lived on the east coast, I'd eat McLobster every day it was in season. And it IS real lobster meat if you're wondering - that's why it's only available on the east coast. If it were fake lobster meat, they wouldn't be able to carry it exclusively in the east because fake lobster meat is made from Alaskan Pollock (a fish) - and you can't catch it in the east. The McLobster uses the same kind of roll that the Toasted Deli Sandwiches used to be on. If I go there (which isn't often, mind you), I usually get one of their new premium sandwiches on the chiabatta buns. Their angus burger is pretty good. They used to have the toasted deli sandwiches, but they've pulled them or modified them. They still have the Turkey BLT, but it's now on a chiabatta, as is the Crispy/Grilled Chicken sandwich. They actually use REAL tomatos now too. It used to be (only a few years ago), if you asked for tomato on a sandwich, they'd just put ketchup on it. After several times when I'd order a sandwich at Tim Horton's, and got rotten lettuce or green tomatos with stems in them (I still eat their donuts/muffins/Timbits/coffee though), I've decided that I'd rather eat at McDonalds. The only issue I have is that they took balsamic vinaigrette off the choice of salad dressings. The Greek is pretty good, but has an awful lot of pepper in it though.

@DRWAM what exactly do you think they would be doing there? Reading the site and I see... "Take your students on a Field Trip to an Apple Store for an unforgettable learning experience. On their Field Trip, students can create something amazing right on the spot. Or they can bring in a project they’ve already created and turn our store into a theater, sharing their achievements with parents, teachers, and friends. No matter which option you choose, everyone will have a great time." and.... "Create amazing projects. Your students can use the Mac computers in our store to create photo albums in iPhoto, edit video in iMovie, build websites in iWeb, make Keynote presentations, or even compose their own songs in GarageBand." and a shout out to Windows users here.... "Showcase their work. If your students have already created amazing projects on Macs or PCs in school or at home, they can share them with others in our store and get the recognition they deserve for their talented work." My kids, both my twins in second grade and one in pre-school went to a pumpkin patch this year, I went along as well. They ran around in a corn maze, on hay bails shaped into a castle, got a free pumpkin, looked at some farm animals, stepped in goat shat and fed a few goats. Oh and got a carmel apple and this is a private school I pay for.

Ok MikeGalos, you hypocrite, let's hear you call MS creepy http://blogs.msdn.com/alfredth/archive/2006/02/23/campus-connection.aspx http://tabletpceducation.blogspot.com/2005/05/microsoft-tablet-pc-school... Meanwhile, you ALL need to figure out what is "creepy" and what is "objectionable"...you find a school trip to be "objectionable". The guy who stalks girls, or the child molester that watches kids on the playground....*THAT* is "creepy". Ok now, hypocrite MikeGalos...is MS creepy? Follow the links above and lets us all know!

GREAT links, "panache". Hypocrisy, thy name is Thurrott.

Actually Lindy, reading the promo makes me want to send my wife! The computer club that my 8 yr old attends for an hour each week after school use XP, not even Vista! I mean, if you're going to teach, use the latest tools for crying out loud. Lindy, you been here a while, but if you don't know, I have 7 yr old twins. They less than 11 months younger than my 8 yr old. I almost threw away all my vitamins when we found out we were having twins, and decided it was time to stop following the extreme Catholic tradition if you know what I mean. At my age, having more kids would kill me.

Lol My twins (boy/girl) are 7, the little one is 4. We are as about as Catholic as you can get. They go to our parish school, which has all Windows XP on 1 year old Dells no less. The school did not want Vista after the parish office had tried it on a few machines. I helped set up the school environment which is a a simple AD domain with about 150 PC's on the network.

Lindy, Perhaps you didn't bother reading the original post (but you did post in the thread, so maybe you just wanted to change the actual question) Here's the actual post: ---------------------- Since Panache asked, I just configured a system at Dell. Apple fans, please tell me how much an equivalent Macintosh desktop would cost since you keep saying there's little to no price difference. Intel Core 2 Duo 2.53GHz Windows Vista Premium SP1 No Monitor 2GB RAM 500GM SATA drive 16x DVD+/-RW drive ATI Radeon HD 3450 with HDMI 16-in-1 Media Card Reader 10/1000 Ethernet 2 IEEE 1394 ports (1 front/1 back) 6 USB 2.0 ports (2 front/4 back) Empty card slots for expansion Empty drive bays for expansion The Dell costs $609 as described. (And don't bother telling me why I don't need the features that Apple doesn't want me to have. If they want my business, I expect a computer company to sell me what I want and not insist that I only want what they choose to sell)

Apple has received great publicity from this. I'm sure they're thankful

Well, Lindy, playing by the same rules that get thrown out by Apple fans (such as the one you tried to substitute) there is an Apple equivalent. I don't see "there's a hole in their offerings probably because there's no demand" excuse accepted when it's a comparison against one of the few Apple configurations. The rule used is pick the closest and add components until you meet the exact match. So, using the same rules, there IS an Apple that meets these needs. It's a base Macintosh Pro with an upgraded hard drive and a 3rd party media card reader. I price it at something like $2,700. It does mean I have to buy some things I don't need. but that's true of every comparison of systems and there is nothing in the system I specified that's in the least bit unusual (except maybe IEEE 1394 but that's in both systems so it doesn't matter). This is not an obscure, low demand computer with exotic requirements. It's a totally generic mainstream desktop system. This is pretty much what every home user buys. And to get those basic needs met, I've got to spend over 4 times as much...

What Paul has become regarding Apple is truly sad, though not unpredictable. Paul is a bomb thrower, a hypocritical and an intellectual coward. He rails against manufactured non-issues like this post and his phony "FUD" of the previous bash-fest. He hypocritically attacks other writers for their alleged biases while ignoring his own and blatantly coloring everything he does in transparent self-interest (like promoting a book about "Vista Secrets" while bashing Apple). He uses bigoted generalization like "iCabal" in ludicrously broad ways to erect pathetic strawman arguments. And worst of all, he throws these bombs, doesn't have the guts to enter the discussion on "his" site and then arbitrarily shuts down the comments. That's just cowardice. Paul has become more and more bitter and petulant with each passing quarter of Apple success. Each quarter that they're expensive computers grow at double digit rates, Paul doubles down on bile. At least Mike Galos and Waethorn are in the fray. I disagree with them pretty much across the board, but they at least have the guts to engage. Paul does not. I didn't always think of him this way. But he's brought this conclusion on himself with his writing and his moderation of this blog. Paul has become a bitter partisan hack that sustains himself entirely on the corporate teet of Microsoft. That his attacks on Apple amount to an extension of Microsoft's own campaign is very telling from his critical-thinking free endorsement of ever ad MS has run, to his parroting of the "Apple Tax" straight from MS marketing talking points to his willful ignorance of Microsoft's deeply dishonest "Apple Tax" comparison chart. And now, as Apple crosses the 10 million in 2008 threshold for the iphone a full quarter early, we get zero introspection. What we get instead of bizarre lines of attack on Apple. ps. as for the "content" of this article, whatever. Is it bad for a school trip to be hosted at a retail outlet? Maybe, maybe not. I doubt Paul was up in arms when Microsoft fulfilled anti-trust punishment with vouchers for more Microsoft products in schools. I believe that's called "price dumping" but I'm sure Paul considered it "charity". His over-the-top reaction to this is hilarious, though.

You know what Mike, I don't think Apple is the right choice for you. Flip it round. What equivalent does Dell have for the Mac Pro. None. Because it doesn't have the quality of industrial design. You may (would) say I don't care about the case I just want a freakin' computer but that is irrelevant using your style of argument. We can all create scenarios where one has a gap that the others don't. If it must be able to run OS X and Windows then you can only, legally, by Apple. In this world of ever increasing complexity it can actually be a benefit to have fewer choices.

Scooby When the "gap" is the major main stream computer configuration that's hardly just a gap, that's a gaping chasm. The reality is that the range of Macs is tiny, badly out of date and skips the whole market segment that most people actually buy (The mid-range desktop) The answer of "Don't buy what you need, buy what Apple wants to sell you" really doesn't wash with anyone who didn't start out saying they'd only buy a Mac and is looking for excuses to justify their purchase even when it doesn't fit their actual needs.

oh mike galos, you are a funny guy. Copied and Pasted from the MS link I posted "Field Trip! The Microsoft Campus Connection Tour might just make an interesting field trip for some students. These events are taking place all over the country at various college campuses. There are presentations on Windows Vista and Office 12, tools for Information Technology professional and an introduction to developing interactive web applications using the latest verion of Visual Studio. And of course there are prizes being given away. " Office 12 and Widnows Vista. Doesn't sound like new programming techniques to me...oh and about visual studio, it's AN INTRODUCTION....also, they give away prizes! The POINT was that it's not "CREEPY" like a perverted stalker or something. Oh, and here is a TRUE, ROUGHLY EQUIVALENT Dell vs iMac iMac 20" (1,499.00) 2.66GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 2 GB 800MHZ SDRAM 320GB SATA Drive ATI Radeon HD 2600 PRO with 256MB Dell XPS One (1,199.00) E6550 (2.33 GHZ) 2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2400 Video Card 320GB SATA I don't need to have all that crapware installed when I get the iMac either, and no need (yet) for anti-virus software. The DELL gave me virtually NO OPTIONS to upgrade the RAM, the Processor (both are upgradeable on the iMac)...so you're telling me, that a $300 price difference, but with a fast processor, and faster RAM, and a better video card, is a HUGE price difference?! HARDLY! Not to mention, if I already have a Windows License, the iMac can run that too....sounds like a much better deal to me... Mike, you are a liar and a hypocrite, sorry to say it. (PS..you want to upgrade your Windows box to more than 4GB, well, actually 3GB, you better get win64...yes yes, we all know that the Leopard kernel doesn't run in 64 bit mode, but all the applications still have 64-bit address space access, not to mention the far superior LP64 model instead of LLP64. In addition Snow Leopard will be fully 64, and all users will be using it instead of a splintered code base of some using 32, and some using 64). Now...back to my job developing software on Windows using Visual Studio (which rocks, for the most part!)

Lindy, Mike doesn't understand what a fair comparison is. He takes a machine that is nothing at all like an iMac, and compares it to an iMac...then says, "What are you going to do, compare it to Mac Pro (the model mainly used for servers are very high end processing)." He's truly pathetic. Then he goes on to say that he DID make a fair comparison, and that you just can't accept it, and that YOU are the one changing the rules! LOL. You know what the best part is? The whole POINT of the XPS1 is to compete with Apple! They never would have made an all in one model if they didn't see the success Apple was having with theirs. And THEN Mike goes on to say about not targeting the "mid range desktop"...but what he fails to accept is that people buying Macs aren't looking for the Mid Range desktop.... He's truly a pathetic man, who can't accept that what he feels and thinks is NOT always the case.

Gap, chasm, schmasm. Apple have decided to design and market their products a particular way and that is for the medium to high end both in consumer and business segments. It seems to be pretty profitable and that's what they are in business for. I have issues with their range at the moment that has postponed my buying for now and would love a midrange, headless desktop. However I am sure that my requirements aren't so unflinchingly specific that there isn't a suitable option in the future. The first thing that SJ (PBUH) did when he came back was to narrow the range because there was a real inventory problem with a mish-mash of models. That was the time of the billion dollar quarterly loss, how times have changed. PCs obviously have an advantage because lots of companies make their own models, for a single company to try and match that would be suicidal. They do what they do best and stick to it. Choice is over-rated when it is applied to a commodity item such as a generic PC.

Sorry to rain their Panache, but I am looking for a mid-range, headless desktop Mac . It's the biggest problem I have with the Apple range at the moment. I currently have an iMac which I really like and works well but I will not upgrade to a machine with a glossy screen. I suspect many others would like that gap to be filled also. MG is right that their is a gap there, where I disagree is that I don't believe Apple has any requirement to meet that need if it doesn't fit their business strategy. It's just TS for me.

I think my point's being made pretty well. If Apple doesn't make it you don't want it. If you want something that Apple doesn't make, change your mind. First pick the Apple you want and then stop comparing Choice is bad. Buy what Apple tells you. And this is from people saying competition is good when they explain why people need OS X.

Ok Mike I will use your logic. I DON'T Vista. I think its a horrendous pile of hot steamy shat. So no Dell will be good for me, unless I want to pay $99 for XP to be installed or go with Ubuntu. No if Dell got Apple to allow them to install OS X, I might go for it. Then again I have Zero need for a desktop computer.

scooby "MG is right that their is a gap there, where I disagree is that I don't believe Apple has any requirement to meet that need if it doesn't fit their business strategy." Nope. I don't feel Apple has any obligation to fill that gap. That's their business decision. I just don't pretend that the gap isn't there or that it isn't a huge segment of the market that Apple is choosing to ignore or excuse that business decision by saying people don't need what Apple chose not to make. Excusing that business decision by saying that nobody buys desktops or that all-in-one computers are the best choice or that laptops are the only thing people are really buying these days (all of which have been said on this board at various times to justify that gap) is, however, intellectually dishonest.

Lindy If you decide that your only decision point is that your computer runs OS X then you only have one choice in vendor. At which point, the fact that you have vastly limited choices is the cost of meeting your need. But don't pretend that choice wasn't a wildly expensive one.