Fastest notebook of 2007: Apple MacBook Pro

ThinkPad x61s FTW!

Paul!?!?! You must be kidding me! Wow, only YOU could turn an article like that into a cost comparison... since when are people looking to buy the fastest laptop possible even worried about $200. Also, are you honestly saying that you can find a faster 17" windows laptop for cheaper than the Macbook Pro 17"? I would like to see that model! Go ahead and spec them out people... it can't be done! Post your model/specs/price here if you can do it. Remember, it has to be equal to or greater specs than the 17" Macbook Pro. Also keep in mind that the Macbook Pro is going to be getting updates in November.

For some odd reason, people in my group as well as employees seek my opinion for hardware. I am certainly at a loss for knowledge on laptops. Since there are so many smart people here, could you give me an idea of the best [non Apple please] on the market. Paul T, you say ThinkPad but do not give a model. Please give the goods so that I can help my staff and partners. I obviously insist on Vista, but XP is not uch of a choice, except for the custom sites to my knowledge. Paul T, how about a review on solidstate hard drives? Worth it or no? Laptop or desktop, would be interesting reading. Again people like me seek knowledgable poeople like Paul and not a journalist who couldn't install RAM, but will write as if they are experts. It just drives me iCrazy, especially with my OCD.:)

My people want reliable products that will not break their piggy bank. Most of them are radiology technologists and nurses.

I actually think ThinkPads are fugly. I kept reading how cool the Thinkpads were and then after purchasing a couple T61s for my company I couldn't stop staring at the off center display, odd carved out space where a camera apparently is on some models, and the battery protruding an extra inch off the back (WTF is that?). I miss the simplicity and attention to detail that Apple puts into their computers. Also, the one thing that still amazes me about Windows machines is how much crap comes installed on them. The Thinkpad was pretty barebones as far as 3rd party software goes but I still had around 10 Lenovo/IBM hardware controlling apps in the taskbar and this is before I even installed Anti-virus. I wouldn't be surprised if the MBP won strictly because it is truly a clean install with drivers only and none of these processor/memory hogging apps running in the "background". Some will think I'm full of shite but I normally find that Windows XP for normal business use (MS Office, Firefox, email, etc.) runs faster in VMWare Fusion on my MBP than on many of the PCs in our office.

"the battery protruding an extra inch off the back (WTF is that?)" those are typically 9-cell batteries for extra runtime. 6-cell batteries are the ones that fit without sticking out. i'd take the 9-cell any day.

fivepoint, I'll blow the mac's price out in two ways. from HPshopping.com hp dv9500t first option: at same price ($2800)what configuration can I get... Core 2 Duo T7700 same as Mac 17 in 1680x1050 same as Mac 4 GB Memory 2x as much as Mac (a $700 mac upgrade) 256mb Nvidia 8600m gs not sure what mac has Fingerprint reader and webcam mac has only webcam ABGN + bluetooth same as mac 240GB 5400rpm(2x120gb) mac has only 160gb HD-DVD-R with SuperMulti mac only has SuperDrive Digital TV Tuner mac doesn't have option 2 Hi cap 8 cell battery __________to recap_______________ Pavilion pwns, no question about it... second option: match the mac pro specs if I drop 2GB ram if I drop the HD-DVD-R for a DVD+-RW SuperMulti If I drop TV Tuner if I drop 1 battery............I get: a price under $1600 __________to recap_______________ Pavilion pwns again ________________summary_______________ fivepoint was pwned

1) How many operating systems does it run? ONLY ONE. AND ITS WINDOWS. 2) Does it have iLife? NO. 3) Does it weigh less than 7lbs? NO. IT WEIGHS WELL OVER 8. 4) Is it likely to contract a virus or require hundreds of dollars per year to keep it from getting one? YES. 5) Is the company who builds it considered to have the best (hands down) customer support in the world? NO. 6) Does it come pre-loaded with tons of crapware, including games, 30-day trials, etc? YES. 7) Does your computer company have hundreds of brick and mortar stores all around the U.S. which make it easy for you to take the product in and get it repaired? NO. 8) Does your computer win design contests, and get lauded for its beauty and industrial design? NO.

fivepoint, I am sorry I thought this was a mature conversation. 1)It can't do some stuff I life can but it can do lots ilife can't like media center... 2)It ways just UNDER 8 pounds. 3)Yah, it runs windows, and heck even linux if you want to. -bye the way for you to wun windows you would even have to fork out more money. 4)I honestly don't know a single person to get a virus since xp sp2 came out. 5)HP's support has won numerous awards, and like any company some will like it some won't 6)It is not that much of a burden to remove crapware considering I save over $1000 dollars. 7)Umm, I could add next day service as an option and still be cheaper than your macbook, or send it in. I have heard more horror stories about mac nerds screwing things up than I can count. Or if I buy it at a place like best buy, they can service it. (I think macbooks only get 90 days support full support included) 8)Actually many people find the dv9500t very attractive, and it has won numerous awards look at the list on this page: http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_can_series.do?storeN... You were saying....

First Paul et al. Bitch about how expensive the mac book pro is and then when it comes time to find a computer that is actually faster than the Mac Book you have to step up to a 5158.00 dollar laptop that ways a whopping 11 pounds. My back aches just thinking about it. According to PC mag with accessories the thing weighs in at an obscene 14 lbs. Geez, a 20" imac is only twenty lbs. I'm not saying this thing isn't a lap top. But, considering that it uses a desktop processor and has the cooling to go along with it, I'd hope the thing can be faster than a laptop at half the weight and half the price. Regards Joe Dokes

Honestly, who is the target audience for that?? I have to walk a mile each way from the subway to work. My 5 lb. MacBook Pro has given me sciatica, that thing would likely put me in a wheelchair. Throw in external drives and other accessories and you'd be better off throwing a full desktop computer complete with display into your backpack.

Waethorn, I don't understand your comment, are you agreeing with me that the Asus is obscenely heavy and thus too impractical to be called a laptop? To be honest, I could see this beheamouth being attractive to twenty something, living in a small apartment who wants something smaller than a desktop and something that can occasionally be lugged to a friends for a lan party, and wants close to the power of a good desktop. The other issue about memory. You complain about the fact that many of the tests were unable to take advantage of the various machines 4 GBs of ram. Exactly who's fault is this? Do we blame the laptop makers who sent the machines to PC World with out an OS ready to see more than 3GB of Ram. Do we blame PC world for not installing the 64 bit Version of XP or Vista? Do we blame third party hardware developers who have been unwilling to build the necessary drivers so 64 bit Vista can run in a real environment. Do we blame Microsoft who has been unable to make a 64 bit OS that is truly ready for the mainstream user? The issue we've been discussing without coming out and saying it is the conception of value. I would argue that value is based upon criteria that goes beyond price. Is it the price, quality of hardware (read reliability), performance of hardware (read speed), weight, cutomer service? It is all of these. This is something PC people sometimes fail to recognize. Value goes far beyond price, thus when you buy a mac you're buying the complete package. The Mac clearly doesn't win on every count against every computer. But I believe and this is why I bought a mac, that when you weigh all the factors price, reliability, speed, customer service the mac is a winner. Regards Joe Dokes

I agree Joe. I actually used to be a huge fan of Microsoft and hated Macs. Of course that was pre-OS X which changed everything for me. In '02 I bought a TiBook for myself to try out the Mac but I still considered it a toy. The hardware was cool but OS X is what really attracted me to the Mac. At that time I understood most of the criticisms of Macs, they were slow, they didn't have a huge selection of software, OS X wasn't the mature platform it is today, and trying to do any real work in Windows using Virtual PC was a complete nightmare. When Apple switched to Intel all of that changed. Now I'm running Window XP and Ubuntu in VMWare at crazy fast speeds, I dual boot between Vista and Leopard and can run Tiger from a USB powered external drive (BTW, MS really needs to add this functionality to Vista) if I need to run Mac software that's not compatible with Leopard. On top of that it's UNIX so I have the ability to run any piece of software that I want. I work for a company that's 75% Mac and 25% Windows running Unix, Windows, and OS X servers so having one machine that can administer everything is a huge plus.

DRWAM, I did not mean to say that I surf the internet commando. I like most people realized that anti-virus software is almost 100% necessary for PC. I also realize there are numerous free near zero maintenance anti virus programs that I recommend every pc user use. I have been using programs like AVG and Avast on my family ( including extended) 15 pcs for years. Most members in my family I can describe as not brilliant with respect to computers, that being said I have not had an issue in a very long time. You could have saved your friends and family (even yourself) a lot of time if you would have taken these simple measures before hand. Obviously you are a pretty avid internet forum user and you should have known enough to do that.

"My 50yr old sister-in-law was looking for the cheapest ticket to China and gave me a Trojan horse in 20 minutes on my PC with XP sp2." try using (read: *BUY*) a reputable, up-to-date antivirus and antispyware product then, and quit downloading illegal software and music. honestly, there's no preventing the stupidity of users sometimes. "I don't understand your comment, are you agreeing with me that the Asus is obscenely heavy and thus too impractical to be called a laptop?" no. it was the Eurocom. the Asus system I mentioned is just similar to it. and no, I'm not agreeing with you at all. it has a clamshell design, much like the MBP. any laptop/"notebook" that has a 17" screen is not portable by any stroke of the imagination, regardless of the weight. however, both have a clamshell design and are smaller than a desktop, so they both fall under the "desktop-replacement laptop" form factor category. "I could see this beheamouth being attractive to twenty something, living in a small apartment who wants something smaller than a desktop and something that can occasionally be lugged to a friends for a lan party" ....and the MBP is different from that how? oh ya - it won't play games, so the LAN party is off. they also both target those that favour speed, and have more money than brains. "The issue we've been discussing without coming out and saying it is the conception of value." noooo....we were discussing which system was the fastest notebook running Windows Vista. i provided the answer. "Do we blame the laptop makers who sent the machines to PC World with out an OS ready to see more than 3GB of Ram." No. "Do we blame third party hardware developers who have been unwilling to build the necessary drivers so 64 bit Vista can run in a real environment. Do we blame Microsoft who has been unable to make a 64 bit OS that is truly ready for the mainstream user?" No, since all of the hardware in those notebooks runs great on Windows Vista x64 versions (including the MBP). "Do we blame PC world for not installing the 64 bit Version of XP or Vista?" Yes! PC World customized the MBP. they didn't, however, customize the other notebooks that they were testing it against. their testing practise is flawed. PC World said they didn't test one as fast as the MBP, and yet, they conveniently forgot [at least] one that is under their own laptop category. so the statement: "The fastest Windows Vista notebook we've tested this year--or for that matter, ever--is a Mac." is a) incompetence or b) a lie. take your pick.

Waethorn, totally agree on every point

"any laptop/"notebook" that has a 17" screen is not portable by any stroke of the imagination, regardless of the weight. " You have obviously never toted around a 17" MBP then. Mine fits into the backpack I bought over the summer for my old Lenovo t60p perfectly and I have not noticed any additional weight. Now, I wouldn't want to lug around my buddies 17" Toshiba Satellite. That mofo weighs more than my Windows desktop tower (and is easily twice as thick as the MBP). To each their own I guess.

If you want light, you need to go ultraportable. While the lightest MacBook seems to be around 5 pounds, I can get, and did get, a Lenovo x61s, and with the 4-cell battery, is 2.8 pounds. I've gotten so used to the small size that when I use a laptop that is bigger, I am taken aback. And yes, I have felt the MacBooks in the Apple store. If weight was an absolute issue, there is a growing market of inexpensive UMPC's. A very attractive one is the Fujitsu U810, which you can get for around $899. To answer DRWAM's question, no doubt, for the medical market, a tablet or pure slate Vista computer is the way to go. The inking improvements in Vista make it a slam dunk. Go to www.jkontherun.com. That blog has a ton of information on just this type of stuff. Also www.gottabemobile.com. "1) How many operating systems does it run? ONLY ONE. AND ITS WINDOWS." Or Linux. This is a weak argument, since it only runs Windows as long as APPLE continues to support it. I'm sure some of those sales of Leopard have to do with Boot Camp Beta expiring by the end of the year. Also, Apple does not support running on non-Mac hardware, making this argument irrelevant. Talk about a monopoly ;) Anyway, all of these people crowing about using Windows on an Mac, are you guys properly licensed? - Crickets - If you truly want to use the fact that a Mac can run Vista or XP, you must factor the cost of Windows in to the price. And that cost MUST be the full version, not an upgrade. "2) Does it have iLife? NO." Once again, a weak argument. Proprietary software. "4) Is it likely to contract a virus or require hundreds of dollars per year to keep it from getting one? YES." Huh? Hundreds of dollars per year? You can go a few ways with this. First, you have a few freeware options that are still quite good. I use some myself. Secondly, you don't need to spend nearly that much per year even if you want to buy the software. OneCare is $49.95/year. Other options exist for cheaper. Do your research. In fact, with rebates around tax time, you can usually score the full Norton or McAfee suites for free. www.fatwallet.com FTW.

I find it ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS to listen to you guys talking about buying a quality virus software, updating it regularly, monitoring it for any virus/trojans/etc. I haven't had to put up with that crap for 6 years, and I am very happy about it. What a pain in the a$$ that used to be! It is also absolutely hilarious because: A) Did you add that into the cost of the HP laptop? I just looked up a popular one (Norton) which sells its 2 year service for $135. That means over the course of the lifetime of the computer... lets say 6 years... you will have spent another ~$400 on virus protection. B) How much time are you going to spend keeping that software up to date, and if it fails, how long is it going to take you to fix the problem? How much is that time worth? Did you add that to the cost of the HP laptop? I know that MY time is pretty valuable... how about yours? C) The point of cost is pretty ridiculous when you are only talking about a fraction of the total cost of owning a computer. How about energy use? How about periphals that stop working when you update to the next version of windows? How about the software you have to buy, to gain the same basic functionality as the mac? GUYS, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP HERE. Why consider something else? I guess here is the bottom line... that is fine that you guys want to keep buying your pcs, and that is fine that you are happy with that. But take it from someone who owns a mac. It is a MUCH better experience. From the day I bought mine I have been 100% happy with the purchase... and 6 years later, I am going to update my old mac with Apple's new operating system (which by the way has completely dominated vista in most reviews). I would like to see any of you PC guys update your 6 year old pc with vista. If you don't want to worry about viruses, get a mac. If you want the most logical, advanced, operating system, get a mac. If you want the most beautiful hardware, get a mac. If you want the best built in software, get a mac. If you want to be able to run the world's two most popular operating systems at the same time, get a mac. If you want to have a superior user experience, and never have to worry about security and/or viruses, etc, get a mac. You have every reason in the world, and the only thing you guys can say in return is: "uh... yeah, but it costs like a couple hundred more" and "yeah, but I want to be able to update the processor in a few years." and my personal favorite... "haha, macs are just toys" in combination with "I want a computer that is a true gamer." Anyway, guys... keep this up. I am truly getting a good laugh at your expense! I truly pity you!

Thanks Dipsh, I will probably just disconnect the cable and use a mouse, since my kids use it. I have my Custom overclocked PC and a Mac Pro Tower [3GHz quad with 4GB RAM and RAID 0]. I think that NERO comes very close to many of iLife features and only costs $99. I do not think that I could tell the difference in home DVD's made from a digital camcorder. Also, Comcast and Verizon give a free anti virus/security suite, which seems to work well, although I surf wisely. So Security costs are really not an added cost to Windows. Maybe some anti-spyware is, but Counterspy is pretty good [PC World] and is $29. However, we cannot argue about the wasted time issue for PC security, which only becomes a significant if you have many PC's and you take care of them all yourself [like me and my wife and kids]. I would mind it less if my friends would stop calling about the problems that their kids bring to Windows. Even my best friend's 53 yr old wife downloads stupid stuff. It's just unbelievable. At the 4 Hospitals, our PACS workstations [for viweing diagnostic imaging] are blocked from the internet for fear of virues and malware. The IT guys use a tough firewall, and do not want the anti-apps on the PACS WS as they fear conflict with the proprietary GE PACS software. It's kinda stupid as I have the same software at my offices and you can surf the web on the same type of workstations and PACS software. We just have a password protection and software to block undesirable sites. We have never had a problem with any of them since the June 2004 install. I just can't wait until they upgrade for IE 7 compatibilty so that we can all upgrade to Vista soon. It's inevitable.

fivepoint, obviously somebody's not reading my messages, or other people's. With AVG or Avast installed: A) I haven't paid a dime. B) It automatically updates, and automatically searches the computer. C) What about energy use? You are the one running the 6 year old mac, thats an energy hog. A Lot of my peripherals still work. The one's that don't (can't think of any) I wouldn't want to use anyway. It's called FREEWARE. There is actually decent software out there that does what your precious iLife does. You can get nero for free normally with mail in rebates at places like Fry's electronics. You probably don't realize it but you made a few logical fallacies in your argument. I think if you add up all the money(Extra dough, time included (unless you are worth $500 an hour, I'm not)) I'm spending, I would still be getting a cheaper system. It's great that you are telling me my user experience is crap, when you are not me and my actual experience is quite the opposite. I guess here is the bottom line... that is fine that you want to keep buying your mac, and that is fine that you are happy with that. But take it from someone who owns many pcs. It is not the hell hole you think it is. I love my pcs. From the day I bought mine I have been 100% happy with the purchase... and let me see I have been using pcs for 15 years. None of them ever crapped out on me. When I wanted a new one that could do something better, I typically donated my old one in perfect working order. I use my computers frequently for video editing and gaming, so no being able to load vista on a six year old pc is a mute point. No six year old pc can keep up with my multitasking. Again you say that PC's are less energy efficient, last time I checked since mac switched to intel, they are the same exact thing on the inside! You with your 6 year old mac are the one sucking power. That's not to say my family is all on new equipment. A few of the computers are from the late 90's and still running great with very little maintenance. No they are not running vista, or being used for video editing, but they do just fine on XPSP2 at what they are being used for. All of your statements are statements of opinion. You aren't actually making any valid points. fivepoint please read my article before making another reply.

In terms of power usage, please see the most recent desktops by Lenovo. The A61e is perhaps one of the most energy efficient desktops on the market, if not the most. With an optional solar power panel that can be hooked up, it certainly seems to be the most efficient desktop there is. I don't see any other big players that have made this much progress. fivepoint, your analysis is just simply wrong concerning market share. The people that are in the trenches every day investigating malware, such as those people at F-Secure, McAfee and Sunbelt, which are blogs that I read daily, plus SANS, the overwhelming majority of malware is written with the intention of making money somehow. No one is really in it for the fame anymore. If you actually do some research on this subject (which I'm sure you won't, so I don't know why exactly I'm wasting my time), you will see that these malware writers are simply following the money. Either they are phishing, or with the most recent DNS changers, actually trying to build up affiliate money by pointing people away from legitimate sites to those that make money. Apple has done a grave disservice to people like fivepoint that feel that their OS is somehow invulnerable. Complacency doesn't work, and it WILL come back to bite them, both Apple and its users. Please read the link I provided, it provides some unbiased insight. Here it is again: http://sunbeltblog.blogspot.com/2007/10/mackanapes-can-now-can-feel-pain... The Mac doesn't have 6% of malware simply because it wasn't profitable to develop for it before with such a small market. "Mac OSX provides far more security by definition than Vista does. There aren't many experts that would deny this." With XP, I can believe this, but provide me with some of this "expert" opinion regarding Vista. I think it is just the opposite. Look at the situations where the Leopard firewall is being disabled, and look at the critical flaws found in Vista compared to other OS's. The numbers don't back up what you are saying. "Your indication that malware does not affect the mac purely because of market share is hilarious, and has been proven wrong many times over." How? Did the Mac suddenly have some short surge of market share and then go back down? In order for your argument to be true, the Mac would have had or have a huge market share that is comparable to Windows. That was or isn't the case. "ts called administrator access. Figure it out." You should figure it out. It only takes some careless users to circumvent these controls and inadvertently give admin access to malware.

I think the rest of the pro-Mac comments have been sufficiently nailed to the inside of the coffin. As far as cost of antivirus software goes, as well as "headaches", OneCare is simply the easiest one I've found so far which doesn't get in your way. Granted, in Windows Vista, you don't need a lot of the added functionality that OneCare provides, but to have everything integrated in one application, and figuring that it only costs about $17US/yr to protect a computer with it (1 license is good for 3 computers), it is well worth it. Also, with OneCare 2.0, there is some new multi-PC management capabilities which facilitate controls over "the kids' computers" for example, Vista's Network Access Control security added to XP, as well as online photo backup services included. You don't buy OneCare like they way you buy Norton. Whether you buy it online or in retail, it's ALWAYS an online subscription, and upgrades are free, so long as you're still subscribed. Anybody that's currently subscribing will get the 2.0 upgrade for free when it gets released (likely by the end of this month). I would also argue that Norton products are not that reputable. They may sell well, but as far as security problems go, malware attacks the biggest market share, and I've worked on several systems where Norton just didn't pick up viruses where other scanners did. In many cases, Norton just wouldn't detect the virus or malware until you did a full scan of the drive. This begs the question: If Norton's on-access scanner was working properly, how did the malware get stored on the drive in the first place??? (That's rhetorical - it wasn't) Also, for business IT types, if you haven't looked at Forefront Client Security, you need to have a good slap. If you don't need the management server capabilities, it will only cost <$13US/computer/yr for protection. FCS doesn't require the server components either. In fact, if you've ever used Windows Defender before, you've seen FCS, because the protection engine "plugs-in" to Defender's interface (it is a separate program, but it borrows some of the protection services that Defender uses). For companies with 5 or more Windows Vista systems, it's the perfect match. If you're using 10 or more systems, it's highly advisable that a company invest in the management server though, since it makes monitoring and servicing those PC's like a walk through the park for the IT staff.

The answer is yes. An Apple is absolutely worth a premium over a Dell. Is it the 900.00 dollar premium you claim, no. But there is a permium. Why are Mac users willing to pay the premium, because over time we realize that the Mac has a lower cost of ownership. The Mac has a higher degreee of customer satisfaction, a longer life, overall better build quality, and according to the article and if you buy the top of the line, it is the faster truly portable computer on the market. By the way the FUD you are saying about how Apple charges for fixes is just ludicrous. Apple does charge for upgrades, for example from 10.4 to 10.5 but they do not charge for bug fixes and security updates. The only thing you have been able to nail to the inside of the coffin is your credibility. Occasionally you express some insight. For example, the realization that Norton sucks. But your inability to understand that Apple makes an excellent product at a competitive price is what is truly laughable. Regards Joe Dokes

"Is it the 900.00 dollar premium you claim, no. But there is a permium." "His clear editorial bias against the Mac and Apple products as being "overpriced" is just as irrelevant as it is dishonest." I'd say that was a challenge. So here it goes: Here's a Dell system: Dell Inspiron 1720 Core 2 Duo T7700 2.4Ghz 800Mhz FSB Windows Vista Ultimate 17" Glossy 1920x1200 screen 256MB GeForce 8600M GT 4GB DDR2-667 Dual Channel RAM 250GB 5400RPM SATA HDD DVD Burner (standard type - no additional software) Intel 3945n Wireless 2.0 Megapixel webcam integrated High Definition Audio Microsoft Office 2007 Home & Student Logitech V220 Wireless Mouse DellCare Premium service w/ 3 year warranty & security solution included for term Online backup with DellCare Premium Integrated modem/LAN $2661US Now here's the comparable MacBook Pro: Core 2 Duo 2.4Ghz (doesn't specify model, but will assume T7700 because of FSB speed) 4GB DDR2-667 Dual-Channel RAM 250GB SATA 5400RPM HDD 17" 1920x1200 Glossy screen Apple USB modem (modem not integrated) AppleCare Protection plan (3year warranty + support) stuff on spec sheet but not on checkout: High Definition audio Apple Wireless N Geforce 8600M GT 256MB NO office suite included NO online backup included NO wireless mouse included $4147 Go ahead. Try to prove your statement now. "Is it the 900.00 dollar premium you claim, no. But there is a permium." You're right. The difference is a whopping $1486!!! That's really justified. (sarcasm) There is absolutely NOTHING that you can claim the Dell is missing that is worth that kind of money. In fact, you could buy another lower-end Dell notebook for that kind of money. "His clear editorial bias against the Mac and Apple products as being "overpriced" is just as irrelevant as it is dishonest." How dishonest can it really be when both of those prices come directly off of each respective vendor's websites? It's your word against his word against theirs (the truth)....