Tim Bray Joins Google Android Team, Lashes Out at Apple

This is good stuff when you consider that the author, Tim Bray, is the co-creator of XML and is thus very well-respected in the industry. His comments here about Apple are exactly right.

As of this morning I work for Google. The title is “Developer Advocate”. The focus is Android. Fun is expected.

Compete With Apple, You Say?

As of now, they’re selling around 90K iPhones per day compared to around 60K Android handsets. It’s a horse race!

The iPhone vision of the mobile Internet’s future omits controversy, sex, and freedom, but includes strict limits on who can know what and who can say what. It’s a sterile Disney-fied walled garden surrounded by sharp-toothed lawyers. The people who create the apps serve at the landlord’s pleasure and fear his anger.

I hate it.

I hate it even though the iPhone hardware and software are great, because freedom’s not just another word for anything, nor is it an optional ingredient.

The big thing about the Web isn’t the technology, it’s that it’s the first-ever platform without a vendor (credit for first pointing this out goes to Dave Winer). From that follows almost everything that matters, and it matters a lot now, to a huge number of people. It’s the only kind of platform I want to help build.

Apple apparently thinks you can have the benefits of the Internet while at the same time controlling what programs can be run and what parts of the stack can be accessed and what developers can say to each other.

I think they’re wrong and see this job as a chance to help prove it.

The tragedy is that Apple builds some great open platforms; I’ve been a happy buyer of their computing systems for some years now and, despite my current irritation, will probably go on using them.

Discuss this Article 44

chipwinter
on Mar 15, 2010
Let's just hope Microsoft doesn't fall into this "landlord" approach with Windows 7 and allows developers to put up what they want and sell it where they want. Google and Microsoft versus Apple would be quite a match.
gfryesc1
on Mar 15, 2010
which comment is 'exactly right', thurrott? the one where he says apple computers are very satisfying and he'll be a buyer into the future? I wonder what he thinks of Windows... I bet Thurrott would change his tune about the 'respected co-creator of XML'
SandmanX82
on Mar 15, 2010
Just as a side note...I, along with many, many others I'm sure, think it's really cool whenever people refer to Paul as "Thurrot" in every post they make, and addresses him as such in every sentence they write. It especially makes it stand out when they have an awesome profile picture to go along with it.
Ozric
on Mar 15, 2010
Apple's version of the internet is somewhat akin to AOL's back in the day. That was quite big once too :)
yoshipod
on Mar 15, 2010
I think Microsoft will have to take the "Landlord" approach if they have a hosted marketplace for selling apps. Lets imagine that they allow any app from any developer into their store. Suddenly there are hundreds, if not thousands, of apps related to porn. Now Microsoft is a porn retailer. I don't think that would go over too well with schools, governments and businesses that use Microsoft products.
chuckb84
on Mar 15, 2010
I'm happy to see competition for the iPhone. It will be a win for everyone that Google and Apple compete. I don't see either product as bad, and can see how different folks might logically prefer one over the other. The world got into a bad place when Microsoft achieved hegemony on the desktop. Much as I like Apple's stuff, I don't want hegemony for them, or any other player, in the mobile world. The fact that the competition is apparently fueled by a strong dislike between Schmidt and Jobs just makes it all more interesting. The problem for Microsoft is that this intense competition between iPhone/Pad and Android will drive both to more rapid innovation, and that is making the time until Windows 7 phones are released seem longer and longer. As with the Zune, Microsoft may just be too late to the party. The other interesting factor is that the tech world, for the first time in many years, there are three players of roughly the same "Gorilla" size. Furthermore, each player has a stream of funds from secure markets that lets them dig in for a long hard fight. It's gonna be pretty funny when Apple switches to Bing on the iPhone. Machiavelli would love it.
rr0de74@live.com
on Mar 15, 2010
To bad for Tim Bray. The average consumer does not care about the rules that the developer must abide by to make apps for the iPhone. Clearly (see massive sales) they just want an iPhone and some of the 159k apps. http://148apps.biz/app-store-metrics/ Apple gets that the average consumer wants a nice device that will do what they need. They KNOW that the average user does not care what CPU, GPU, OS, language the apps were written in, rules for submitting apps etc. If and when the iPhone stops giving users what they want, it will then lose its market share as users move on. Example: Windows Mobile. Android has a good shot at faring well against the iPhone, but it could easily go down the wrong path. I see already to many devices spread across OS 1.5, 1.6, 2.0 and 2.1 with some of those apps not working on all versions. This splintering does not look like it will slow down anytime soon. What is funny in all of this is that it looks like MS is going to be somewhere in between Apple (total control) and Google (totally wide open), with the MS leaning more towards the control aspect. Which is more like the Xbox/Xbox Live.
Waethorn
on Mar 15, 2010
"Lets imagine that they allow any app from any developer into their store. Suddenly there are hundreds, if not thousands, of apps related to porn. Now Microsoft is a porn retailer. I don't think that would go over too well with schools, governments and businesses that use Microsoft products." The difference is that Microsoft doesn't completely cut off third party stores from offering it, as does Apple. Apple won't allow any 3rd-party code on the iPhone unless it comes from their own hosted store. Microsoft allows 3rd-party stores to carry what they want though. Microsoft doesn't completely control the entire platform - they only put restrictions on their own marketplace within that platform.
Waethorn
on Mar 15, 2010
" They KNOW that the average user does not care what CPU, GPU, OS, language the apps were written in, rules for submitting apps etc. " BULLSH#%. If that were true, then they wouldn't have released the iPhone 3GS with a faster processor. Ditto for the iPad.
rr0de74@live.com
on Mar 15, 2010
"It's gonna be pretty funny when Apple switches to Bing on the iPhone. Machiavelli would love it." It would be very funny indeed. I try Bing lots but 90% of the time it just does not do as well as Google when it comes to search. A simple example. When working on a Windows PC for friends, cleaning it up etc, I will always remove whatever AV they have now and install MSE on it. To install it I just Google MSE grab the very top link and go. Try it with both Google and Bing. Bing is doing better but its still down the page a bit vs Google on the top.
rr0de74@live.com
on Mar 15, 2010
@wae its a selling point sure. However ask the average iPhone user what S stands for and most will have no idea. Like I said, if the device does not do what they need it to do, they will move on. Slow is being one of those things. The user does not care if the iPhone has a single core or 7 cores. They dont care, they just want it to be fast or fast enough. The average iPad owner wont give a RATS....arrse if the OS is based on the iPhone OS or full OS X. They wont. They will care if it CANT do the things they want to do with it. In fact most people will only complain if a electronic device CANT do something and say nothing if its work fine for them. Praise is rare for most users of technology. When was the last time someone said "Man my microwave oven is the shiznitz!!!"?
lazysquirrell
on Mar 15, 2010
@rr0de74@live.com I just googled mse and it wasnt even on the firse page, top result money saving supermarket
Waethorn
on Mar 15, 2010
"To install it I just Google MSE grab the very top link and go." Wow. "Googling" for an antivirus. That's just the worst way to get one, and some of the worst advice you've given. " However ask the average iPhone user what S stands for and most will have no idea." Speed. Straight from the horses mouth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2RuEuAuloA "When was the last time someone said "Man my microwave oven is the shiznitz!!!"?" Probably this guy: http://www.youtube.com/user/dovetastic#p/c/EC5F4510CAA5895F/6/BqDrZW0O7pE
rr0de74@live.com
on Mar 15, 2010
@lazysqirrell http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=MSE&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq= @wae what is wrong with Googling for MSE??? Clearly the first link above is from Microsoft. This link exactly... www.microsoft.com/security_essentials/
rr0de74@live.com
on Mar 15, 2010
@wae "peed. "Straight from the horses mouth:" Ummm yeah I am pretty sure the guys in the video you linked know what the S stands for since they work at Apple. I said "average iPhone user" not average Apple employee.
Waethorn
on Mar 15, 2010
"what is wrong with Googling for MSE??? " A week ago a computer came in with a fake AV program called "Security Essentials 2010", based on the classic WinFixer code that Win/XPAntivirus 20xx always use. The user got it by Google-ing "security essentials" (after hearing about it from a friend) and clicking on a link that looked "legitimate". As per your discussion, ask any Joe-user if they read the domain names on a Google search results page.
Waethorn
on Mar 15, 2010
"I said "average iPhone user" not average Apple employee." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcigqYci7Ss "The *fastest*, most-powerful iPhone yet."
ModernDislocation
on Mar 15, 2010
Weathorn said "The difference is that Microsoft doesn't completely cut off third party stores from offering it, as does Apple. Apple won't allow any 3rd-party code on the iPhone unless it comes from their own hosted store. Microsoft allows 3rd-party stores to carry what they want though. Microsoft doesn't completely control the entire platform - they only put restrictions on their own marketplace within that platform." Microsoft is only allowing Apps for Windows Phone 7 to be sold via the Microsoft owned market place. In reading the link below it sounds like most of the details are similar to Apple's. 99 dollar developer registration fee, enterprise customers are allowed a workaround, and so on. http://i.engadget.com/2010/03/15/confirmed-marketplace-will-be-the-only-...
twangisKahn
on Mar 15, 2010
It's more of a country club rather than a walled garden. That is, it's keeping the riff raff out and not the consumer in. The digerati are teh riffraff My friend still can't upgrade their Droid to 2.1 from 2.0. But hey it's open!! Haven't we heard these arguments before? Linux versus WIndows anyone? If only the the mindless Windows users would only take the red pill and see how wonderful Linux is. There is no future in simply copying someone else. The freetards should know this by now, but the digerati continue to expouse it's virtues and mind numbing configurability. I thought these arguments were already settled. Even the Rails community (profiteers on the backs of the freetards) know the advantages of convention over configurability. Make life easier not harder. It's that simple and people trust Apple to do that.
subzerohitman721
on Mar 15, 2010
Kudos to Tim Bray for saying what a lot of us have been saying. Many of us who use Windows day in and day out, we like what Steve Jobs & Apple has done for the industry. We respect that. No doubt he's a genius. What we don't like is the near authoritarian, "our way or the highway" attitude that Apple frequently takes. I don't like the idea of some guy that I don't even know, telling me what I can or can't have on my devices. I don't like anyone saying I can't have this plugin or deciding in advance what content I can purchase for my device. It just seems anti-Free Market to deny competition the right to compete directly on the Apple platform. Are they afraid that people might choose Opera Mini, Opera Mobile, Firefox Mobile, or others over Safari? Is Google voice better than what's native in the iPhone? I believe the people need to make that choice not executive in some office in Culpertino. rrode74 said "The average consumer does not care about the rules that the developer must abide by to make apps for the iPhone. Clearly (see massive sales) they just want an iPhone and some of the 159k apps." I think you clearly underestimate the customer. If you read articles on PC World, Ars, Engadget, & Yahoo Tech, people are clearly pissed off about Apple blocking Google Voice or blocking some porn apps but leaving Playboy in the iTunes Store. People are slow gaining tech IQ & slowly turning that paradigm on it's head. People ultimately want the choice to make decisions for themselves. They don't want Steve Ballmer, Steve Jobs, Eric Schmidt, or any other CEO dictating to them what they can & can't do with their devices. I raised the conversation with people who aren't that "tech savvy" & they were aware of it. All decided that Apple went too far. So the apps were good when Apple was establishing the App Store & making bucks for it's platform. Now that the platform is established, Apple wants to say this app is better than that app? Shouldn't the people decide? Shouldn't those who download or pay for apps have the choice? That's why I voted with my wallet. No iPhone for me. I went with Android. I've been talking & showing off my phone. People love the beauty, the features, & folks are looking harder at Android. Why? Because Android users ultimately decide what they want. We can go through the Android Market or we can find independent developers. It might not be as seamless as iPhone/iPod, but it doesn't necessarily have to be. Sometimes that uniformity is a bad thing when it takes away from choice. "The user does not care if the iPhone has a single core or 7 cores. They dont care, they just want it to be fast or fast enough. The average iPad owner wont give a RATS....arrse if the OS is based on the iPhone OS or full OS X. They wont. They will care if it CANT do the things they want to do with it." Then why were people asking me, what's the uproar over the iPad? When I explained it to them, most people typical response was, "I expected more from Apple." Clearly, the hardware does matter. How can a consumer of Apple products, who pays an average of $1,199 for the top of the line hardware, a rigidly coded OS, & specialty software for video & music turn around and say the hardware doesn't matter? If the hardware doesn't matter, an Atom processor can run a Hackintosh. That should be good enough. But the hardware doesn't matter? If that's the case, an ARM 11 processor should have been good enough for the iPhone 3GS. But the iPhone 3GS has a Samsung S5PC100 ARM Cortex-A8, the top of the line processor. Your argument totally falls flat, because without the hardware, the software doesn't run. Also, are you saying that Apple can't get OS-X to work on a mobile device? Yet I've seen countless tablets from HP, Acer, & some tablets from Chinese vendors running Windows 7 Home Premium edition. I've seen them on Engadget. If the difference between running the mobile version of iWork or running Microsoft Office with no compromises, then I would say the operating system does matter. 90 plus million copies of Windows 7 proves the OS really does matter. Just make sure you guys ask Steve Wozniak or cell phone inventor Martin Cooper, how they both like their Nexus One phones?
anonymous
on Mar 15, 2010
This post was mentioned on Twitter by thurrott: Tim Bray Joins Google Android Team, Lashes Out at Apple: This is good stuff when you consider that the author, Tim... http://bit.ly/c06ICw
rr0de74@live.com
on Mar 15, 2010
"As per your discussion, ask any Joe-user if they read the domain names on a Google search results page." Agreed. Someone in the know should do it for them.
rr0de74@live.com
on Mar 15, 2010
"I think you clearly underestimate the customer. If you read articles on PC World, Ars, Engadget, & Yahoo Tech, people are clearly pissed off about Apple blocking Google Voice or blocking some porn apps but leaving Playboy in the iTunes Store. People are slow gaining tech IQ & slowly turning that paradigm on it's head. People ultimately want the choice to make decisions for themselves. They don't want Steve Ballmer, Steve Jobs, Eric Schmidt, or any other CEO dictating to them what they can & can't do with their devices." You cant be serious? You quote a bunch tech sites and you think joe consumer reads that stuff? If they read its Time, Newsweek, Nat Geo, People Magazine and NOT PC Mag. I would easily wager and win that the average iPhone user does not read any tech articles...AT ALL. These average users dont care about the politics of smarphone development, and you are crazy if you think so. They care if their Facebook app is working. Your comments on the iPad is funny. I say that because forbes and others are estimating Apple had 120k pre-orders on the first day and will have 500k by April 3rd. The Droid which was massively advertised sold 100k the first weekend and its a much cheaper device. Yes I am saying hardware ONLY matters when its not enough to the average consumer. I am saying that the average consumer does not give 2 shiiitesss about a OS in a mobile/tablet device unless its lacking. Do people care what CPU is in their GPS device? What OS that GPS runs? Only if its slow or lacking features. You think like a PC geek. That is fine but that thinking does not = sales. I can easily flip that whole Windows OS, tablet argument around on you. Microsoft for years jammed a full desktop OS into a tablet and so far outside of specialized markets it has failed with consumers. Will the iPad consumer sales in 1 year be greater than all Windows tablet consumer sales ever??? I would bet they will, with its limited OS and mobile phone CPU and all.
rr0de74@live.com
on Mar 15, 2010
@Moderdislocation you link is the most relevant here. It sounds like MS is going to have a process/rules that are very close to Apple. Hmmm how does that fly with Paul and SubZero? From that link... "We just got out of a meeting with Microsoft's Todd Biggs, who dropped a little bombshell on us: the only official way to get apps on a Windows Phone 7 Series device will be to download them from the just-detailed Windows Phone Marketplace. That means developers will have to abide by Microsoft's technical and content guidelines in order to make it in, with the very real possibility of rejection -- sound familiar?"
redunion1940
on Mar 15, 2010
Doubt that the iPad will sell more than tablets will sell more than all the tablet years combined and estimates has Apple released any actual numbers without numbers how can you assume it will be at 500K I have no doubt it might hit a million given enough time because of the buy everything apple, apple fanpeople
rr0de74@live.com
on Mar 15, 2010
I dont have any real numbers other than what I have read..... http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/03/14/ipad-sales-estimated-to-top-120000-... I also have no real numbers of Windows tablets to consumers. I have never seen a consumer with a Windows tablet, only a few in the corporate world and those were usually used where a tablet worked very well. A Honda dealer near my house uses them in their service department to check people in and out, but I am not sure they are running Windows.
ModernDislocation
on Mar 15, 2010
@rr0de74@live.com I suspect the fact that the Windows Phone Marketplace is sole source of retail for applications and subject to similar terms as Apple's App Store will largely be ignored. I also don't expect that we will see the same "outrage" about Windows 7 Phone Series not having multitasking or Flash as we did with the iPhone lacking these. Windows 7 Phone series is also rumored to be lacking Copy and Paste. If that is true I suspect it will similarly be ignored.
rr0de74@live.com
on Mar 15, 2010
Oh I am sure it will be ignored. And the Xbox 360 its controversial game approval process, exclusives and totally closed xbox live/market place will be praised by Paul.
redunion1940
on Mar 15, 2010
redunion1940
on Mar 15, 2010
I'll admit it is a niche market but that is what it will always be, it doesn't provide anymore or sometimes less functionality yet cost more than there counterparts in the PC world.
redunion1940
on Mar 15, 2010
never mind I think Apple missed out on this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiotron_Modbook
whiplash55
on Mar 15, 2010
Google is starting to show their true colors, now they have a new hit man... Hit men can be bought, I don't care about the iPhone but Apple has always been tightly controlled.
redunion1940
on Mar 15, 2010
Google's in a bad spot if it keeps this up It will be kicked out of China, and lose its monopoly on the iphone
kent909
on Mar 15, 2010
I wonder why he waited so long to share his feelings about Apple. Maybe they really aren't his feelings and this is what he is now paid to do. That's credibility for you.
lotsamystuff
on Mar 15, 2010
"too bad it's not getting the same kind of press as Android." I call BS on that. The Palm Pre got plenty of press, and the iPhone's obituary was being written in the process. The problem with the Pre is that, well, it sort of sucks. That's why it's not getting any more attention.
lehenbauer
on Mar 16, 2010
I think Apple should allow porn apps, although people can certainly get porn off the web in any case. The good thing about what Apple is doing is avoiding malware on the phones. The Microsoft approach is basically to run Windows on phones and then petition the government to tax everyone to pay for all the nightmares. Sure that's glib, but there's not a lot of new thinking coming from Microsoft unless it came from Apple first. Sorry, fanboys. Also I am dubious about the 60K Android phones being sold per day claim. In any case, comparing android and apple like that glosses over the Android fragmentation caused by different UIs, screen sizes and resolutions. As someone who has used both, the Nexus One, in particular, has some elements that are wildly unpolished and painful to use.
Dipsh t Admin
on Mar 16, 2010
The Pre hardware sucks, and so does the Pixi. Too bad, since WebOS is super nice. I've said it before, but Palm, call up HTC and get some nice hardware.
tayme
on Mar 16, 2010
@Dip - You are correct. WebOS is awesome but the hardware sucks - especially the battery life. Since I have never owned an iPhone, can anybody speak truthfully to the batter life on one? My Omnia on WinMo 6.1 was much better than I get on the Pre. What about various Android phones? What is your average charge life? On my Sprint Pre, with moderate usage, 3G only I get about 3-5 hours from a full charge. I can extend that if I am using Wifi for web instead of 3G. GPS use shrinks it to about 2 hours. If I am in the car, I keep it attached to the charger and can actually add charge while using Sprint Nav and **MULTI-TASKING** by streaming Pandora and doing anything else that I need to on the phone. Of couse as a safe driver, my eyes are on the road and I am not playing any games or reading email/text messages shile driving. If I am the passenger, though...I can still do all of those things simultaneously. Connecting to bluetooth for calls and music works great. Post some battery life stats here, if you don't mind. I am truly interested. The app distribution model is perfect on WebOS. Allowing multiple channels and rolling them into a single method with Preware is great. Note - Palm does not control Preware, but they do know about it and fully support its use. Heck, they even demoed it, if I remember right. --tayme
chuckb84
on Mar 16, 2010
"The iPhone vision of the mobile Internet’s future omits controversy, sex, and freedom, but includes strict limits on who can know what and who can say what. It’s a sterile Disney-fied walled garden surrounded by sharp-toothed lawyers. The people who create the apps serve at the landlord’s pleasure and fear his anger." And Microsoft does it the same way. http://www.windowsitpro.com/article/paul-thurrotts-wininfo/MIX-10-Micros... "The company is also locking down the application deployment process with Windows Phone: Now, third party sites will not be allowed to provide users with Windows Phone applications. Those applications will have to come directly via Windows Marketplace only. " And, so much for that multitasking issue: "While the company claims that Windows Phone will support "full multitasking," first generation third party applications will only be able to use a push notification system, similar to what Apple promised to iPhone developers. (Microsoft's Windows Phone applications will support native multitasking capabilities, however.) The company plans to open up the system's multitasking functionality to third party developers over time, I was told." So, whatever philosophical divide there is, Apple and Microsoft are on one side, Android on the other.
yoshipod
on Mar 16, 2010
Subzero - "It might not be as seamless as iPhone/iPod, but it doesn't necessarily have to be. Sometimes that uniformity is a bad thing when it takes away from choice." I think you hit the nail right on the head. Choice is always good. The iphone is successful because many people choose seamless integration and ease of use over total flexibility. There is certainly room in the market for both approaches. I do find it funny that as more information comes about about Windows 7 Phone, the more it looks exactly like the iphone. Of course, Paul will not write an article where he criticizes Microsoft, he will justify these decisions as necessary for the success of the platform.
Dipsh t Admin
on Mar 16, 2010
@tayme, you should check out the amount of apps they were able to open on the Pre Plus. It was actually quite staggering, showing that WebOS is quite an efficient OS. I really want to get a WebOS handset, but I'm just so uninterested in the hardware, and those battery life numbers are extremely poor.
Logjamming
on Mar 16, 2010
Hence, his new nick 'Mr Selective Argument'! I was kinda getting bored with Microsoft Apologist, although it does fit him perfectly.
tayme
on Mar 16, 2010
@Dip - I saw that a while back on PreCentral. Truly impressive for a handheld. I can generally open and use 5-6 with no issues. I have openned as many as 15, jsut letting them idle. I am not sure that in the real world more than 5 or 6 open at the same time would be needed, though. --tayme
chuckb84
on Mar 16, 2010
Wae, "The difference is that Microsoft doesn't completely cut off third party stores from offering it, as does Apple. Apple won't allow any 3rd-party code on the iPhone unless it comes from their own hosted store. Microsoft allows 3rd-party stores to carry what they want though. Microsoft doesn't completely control the entire platform - they only put restrictions on their own marketplace within that platform." That's wrong. From the announcements today it sounds like Microsoft is doing it exactly as Apple does. I'm shocked----shocked, I tell you. "The company is also locking down the application deployment process with Windows Phone: Now, third party sites will not be allowed to provide users with Windows Phone applications. "

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