Vista-to-7 upgrade: 20 hours?

Um, what? In a weird report, Gregg Keizer at IDG News says that upgrading in-place from Windows Vista to Windows 7 "could take over 20 hours to complete, according to Microsoft." This sounded suspicious to me, so I took a few seconds to see if this could be accurate.

Turns out it's another example of sensationalist journalism, and you just gotta love that he chose the "20 hour" bit for his headline. (Actual headline: "Microsoft: Windows 7 upgrades to take 20 hours." Really nice.)

The Microsoft blog post Keizer got this info from concludes with the following:

From the testing we have done, the results show that Windows 7 upgrade time is faster or equal within a 5% threshold to the Vista SP1 upgrade time.

Sounds OK, right? And the point here, of course, is that the Vista-to-7 upgrade experience is excellent. In fact, it's possible to upgrade to Windows 7 in as little as one hour and 24 minutes, again, according to Microsoft. (I'm curious why the headline isn't, "Microsoft: Windows 7 upgrades to take as little as 90 minutes." Wait, no I'm not.)

So where does the 20 hour thing come from? Well, in its bid to be as inclusionary as possible, Microsoft tested a wide range of upgrade scenarios. And on a so-called 32-bit "medium system" (really a "super user" somehow constrained to "low-end hardware"), yeah, it can apparently take all day. (Go figure, but the same PC/person configuration in 64-bits takes half the time, at 10 hours.)

UPDATE: Microsoft updated its post to include this info about the "20 hour" scenario:

The "super user profile" is not a normal user; rather, it's the user profile that represents the extreme power-user who's working with an enormous data set (650Gb of user data) and a large number of installed applications. This user profile is not representative of what most "regular" users, who typically have a much smaller data set and would therefore experience a much, much shorter upgrade time.

What bugs me about this is that it wouldn't be hard to, a) get an actual average of the upgrade time based on Microsoft's figures (hint: Nowhere near 20 hours) and, b) get an average of the upgrade time for scenarios that are in fact realistic for actual customers. In my experience, the Vista-to-7 upgrade takes a couple of hours on actual PCs that have really been used by real people. But I find the Microsoft data here to be overly conservative (i.e. "taking more time than in the real world") for that and another reason: I've performed clean installs of Windows 7 in 15 minutes, 20 minutes tops, and that's true even in virtual environments. But a clean install could take 27 to 47 minutes (according to Keizer, anyway). Seems to me that Microsoft is just covering its bases so it won't hear any complaining from those who try this stuff on borderline PCs.

And its seems like Keizer and/or IDG News are going for the cheap-shot headline. Let's leave that stuff to the blogosphere, eh?

Discuss this Article 127

rr0de74@live.com
on Sep 14, 2009
Wow I thought this was the place to come for sensationalist journalism? Maybe I need to go somewhere else? Since I NEVER do a upgrade over the top on any new OS install, I can only say that Windows 7 takes about 25-30min on a clean install for me. It only asks me a few questions and its painless. What I really find funny about even talking about install time on any OS is that you do this operation maybe once or twice per OS, per machine, or at least I do. So if if Windows 7 took 3 hours to install, in the grand scheme of its life on your PC its nothing. Granted if it did take 20 hours that would be different but anything under 3 I would be good with. If you job was to do nothing but install Windows 7, 8 hours a day manually I guess it would really matter, but who does this? I used to install Netware 3.x from 35 3.5 inch disks.....that was a PITA.
lketchum
on Sep 14, 2009
We build systems and networks for a living and have been testing upgrade paths since Windows 7 went RTM. Specifically, we have tested in-place upgrades on workstations and laptops we manufacture, where there are a wide range of user data sets and installed applications types. Even with security software left on (by intent), the upgrades were completed in under two hours. On x64 bit Windows Vista to 7 systems the time was under an hour (Core i7 systems with 6 GB RAM on X58 based main boards using WD Black 750 GB drives). The upgrade process has been fast, easy and problem free - the best we have sen on any platform. None of the systems we tested were running Apple's iTunes or Quicktime - we had removed these applications where they existed. Tests had revealed that the presence of Apple's software more than doubled the time to upgrade. It is clear that very little reporting of any kind, is either fair or objective. For a very long time, tech reporting has reflected a bias that makes no sense and has no basis in reality. We live in an age when online reporting is driven by ad dollars going largely to Microsoft's competitors. The bias we see and read seems to reflect this reality.
rr0de74@live.com
on Sep 14, 2009
iketchum you talk about BIAS on this site, that is funny. Plus you add those comments about iTunes/Quicktime causing Windows 7 upgrades to double in time. I say you are full of BS, until we see some proof. Its just a lame attempt to go negative with Apple and show your bias....mission accomplished. You are probably the biggest Microsoft bigot on this site next to Mike G. Irony. From you we get 100% Microsoft does everything perfect, Apple is does nothing good. That is the definition of bias. You are like the Sean Hanity of MS. Apple is your Obama.
planetarian
on Sep 14, 2009
rr0de74@live.com: To be fair, for someone such as myself where system building is part of my job, short installation times are definitely a major perk. I was rather excited to see Win7 install in just 15 minutes' time.
realtestman
on Sep 14, 2009
rr0de74@live.com, and of course there's you, the person who can't stand to see someone actually report on the absolute truth. Do you know if the prescence of Apple's software didn't double the time? No? Then be quiet. If you're so concerned, why don't YOU test it with Apple's software on and see how long it takes? Amazing how some people talk such utter rubbish when they don't even know for a fact that what they dispute is wrong.
Grannyville
on Sep 14, 2009
I've performed an upgrade from Windows Vista Home Premium to Windows 7 Beta and it took an hour to do with no problem. This was from the default factory settings on my HP Pavilion laptop. However, I did get a problem afterwards where my laptop wouldn't go into hibernation so I had to do a clean install shortly afterwards. I've done an upgrade on my MacBook Pro from Leopard to Snow Leopard and it's pretty much the same time to install. Though, it seems that doing an erase and install of Snow Leopard takes about 40 to an hour compared to an erase intsall of Windows 7 which takes about 20 minutes.
Logjamming
on Sep 14, 2009
Wow, after reading several comments by Iketchum and Mike Galos, it finally hit. Those are the guys that the DSM-IV manual was made for.
lketchum
on Sep 14, 2009
@rr0de77@live.com Our focus is on delivering the best possible experience we can to customers. Many of them use Apple products and iTunes. It is part of our testing procedures. Based upon this testing and experiences and data collected during Vista's release, Apple's software was identified to install a sys driver that was not not needed and caused Vista and Windows 7 systems to fail with alarming regularity. This was especially true where the user had more than one iPod device that was being supported. It was Microsoft, not Apple, that provided an initial solution and months later, Apple provided an update. Using the latest iTunes software versions at the time fo testing, we observed that where installed, Apple's software would result in upgrade times that were more than twice as long as on systems free of their software, or where there software had been removed before the upgrade. You can call it "BS" if you want, but as we say here: "It is what it is..." and as I have said, our focus is on the customer and from a very practical perspective. We cannot afford to get it wrong and we have to test and devise upgrade procedures that work and do so reliably. My business, in part, depends upon it - certainly it depends upon success for the customer and speed - the faster we can get it done, the better. If an upgrade bakes a customer's system, we'd have to eat the time and costs associated with making it right. Now... this is largely a Windows site and we'll provide our input where we assess it to be helpful for others working to get the most out of Microsoft software. This drives our support for this and similar sites.
Waethorn
on Sep 14, 2009
" If you job was to do nothing but install Windows 7, 8 hours a day manually I guess it would really matter, but who does this?" I DO, I DO!! Er, wait. You said manually? Nevermind. Nobody does that as their job 8 hours a day. WDS FTW! @rrode: I can tell you that having just Quicktime installed on a computer in Audit mode nearly triples the time it takes to Sysprep it under normal circumstances - and yes, we timed it here. We don't install Apple software on new machines that we sell as a general rule. We just wanted to test various performance criteria for build time with varying software configurations. The Quicktime configuration was eliminated. @plane_arian: Image deployment is the way to go. Build it, customize it, capture it, and reuse the image on new systems. Install times take about 5 minutes to dump a fully customized image (with added OEM software and customizations, as well as updates) onto a fresh hard drive.
rr0de74@live.com
on Sep 14, 2009
@realtestman "report on the absolute truth"? Bring it on if you have proof. If this was the case it would be all over the internet. If its true I would accept it. I am not going to test it, because I would only ever do a clean install of any OS, Windows or not. Ask Grannyville, did he have iTunes/Quicktime installed on his Vista Home premium when he upgraded to Windows 7 Beta? If so did it take more than an hour? Ahh and he was better served with a clean install. @planetarian if you really install Windows (7 or other) a lot as part of your job, there are LOTS of solutions for deploying Windows automatically or very close to almost zero steps on your side. Microsoft and many 3rd party vendors provide free and paid for solutions, to include not only OS installs but applications as well, to many computers at once.
Waethorn
on Sep 14, 2009
@Grannyville: Try removing any HP power management utilities before the upgrade. A lot of the brand name software applications for hardware control will be incompatible. Also, the network "manager" programs for wired and wireless connections are absolutely useless, since Windows already does that. Do yourself a favour and remove those too.
joe-dokes
on Sep 14, 2009
Paul is also being disingenuous he outlines a "power user scenerios" he makes it sounds like this is just a sliver of the people upgrading, I would argue that the very people who will upgrade from Vista to 7 are the very power users who actually take the time and resources to upgrade. Further, since most of the users who take time to read this blog are at least above average users it seems reasonable for him to be honest and say hey, you might be able to upgrade in 90 minutes but plan on two or three hours just to safe. rr0rode74- The problem with nuking windows from orbit is that you now have to reinstall all your software. Do you count that in your 30 minute total? Sure you might get a pretty login screen in 30 minutes but if you spend two hours loading all your other software than you really aren't being honest either. Finally, I've upgraded many an Apple OS and guess what sometimes it takes a long time and sometimes it doesn't, why who cares, it should be a rare occurrence. If it is not a rare occurrence than you have bigger problems. If you are installing / reinstalling your system software more than once every couple of years than you have either hardware problems or you are allowing your system to become infected with malware. Regards Joe Dokes
Waethorn
on Sep 14, 2009
@rrode: MDT does clean installs by default, even during the "upgrade" task. It uses USMT to back up settings, and does a clean install with your customized image (hopefully with all of the same applications in it), and then migrates the user data back into place. You can configure it to do in-place upgrades, but Microsoft even states that the default method is a "best practise".
Logjamming
on Sep 14, 2009
@ lketchum Where's the Word 2008-update, that finally makes Office 2008 start up faster than Photoshop CS4 and actually makes it a usable piece of software? It took Apple to get out the OSX 10.5.3 update and the Snow Leopard update to make Word work any faster; none of the 12.1 and 12.2 updates did anything noticeable on machines loaded with rams and top of the range CPUs. Ah, wait: it's only the other way around, right?
Waethorn
on Sep 14, 2009
BTW: I should point out that the best practise for OEM's is not to bother building a complicated automated install script. Instead, they should just do simple installs with integrated drivers (only when necessary for network and mass storage devices for boot-time), add OEM customizations to the script (logos, and support info, and whatever else), and then just run the script on a "master system". Once it boots into Audit mode, do all of the customizations manually, such as installing software and adding drivers, etc. (you also need to set a command in the script to prevent drivers from being wiped out if you Generalize), and then Reseal it. Then capture it manually via ImageX in a WinPE environment on next boot, and then deploy it via USB stick with a customized version of WinPE stored on the stick, or via standard WDS deployment. It's not very "automated" at the beginning, but building scripts and config sets can take a lot longer than just going and doing manual installs to get the image built as quickly as possible. Afterwards though, you have a deployment image that's extremely fast to deploy (about 5 minutes in total). For system builders, the longest time it takes for build time is the actual *building*, not software-ing. Second to building is probably the testing phase, but larger builders don't test every single system coming off the assembly line - that's left up to defect management for QA. In corporate deployment, config sets are your friend. It would take a long time to build one using only WinSIM though, so luckily Microsoft makes MDT, which is much faster as integrating drivers and applications. Unfortunately, it's not designed for system builders. :(
rr0de74@live.com
on Sep 14, 2009
@Joe Dokes....I would argue that majority of people upgrading are the very few, Joe-Users that actually buy Windows 7 at say Best Buy, and they upgrade because they dont know how to do a clean install. The next group would be a small business that has small IT group, maybe just one person, that does not have the time to do clean installs or the experience to setup something like WDS, which would do it all for them. Power users do a clean install if they are a Power User. A clean install is the only install that will go the longest way in ensuring the best results. GrannyVille is a perfect example. It takes me days to get everything back to normal. Sure I knock out 90% of it in say 3-4 hours, but as I use stuff over the course of next few days I make adjustments or add minor software I forgot about. Still after 3-4 days at the most, I am good to go for months/years and hence I dont care that a clean install took 3-4 days. In a corporate environment I am going to take weeks to build and tweak a corporate build that will be tested and verified by different groups. Once done it will be deployed to PC's as a clean install over the network in probably an hour or 2, complete with all applications.
rr0de74@live.com
on Sep 14, 2009
Word 2008 became usable on a Mac when MS released SP2. In fact Word 2007/Office 2007 got a huge performance boost with SP2 for that product as well. Exchange 2007 is WAY better after the recent SP2 (870meg - 1.7gig download). I guess we have to wait until SP2 for MS products now????
RunTimeError
on Sep 14, 2009
"And its seems like Keizer and/or IDG News are going for the cheap-shot headline. Let's leave that stuff to the blogosphere, eh?" Pot, meet kettle....
lketchum
on Sep 14, 2009
@Logjamming I can't speak to that which I have no experience with. If Office 2008for the Mac is not performing well for you, or those you support, I would approach the issue from the same perspective we do with other platforms and test. I'd establish and stick to a baseline to the extent possible and record data against that baseline. Only then could I offer even an opinion, much less a solution. The Mac not being our area of business, I have nothing more to offer in your case. For others, obviously there are a number of great deployment options - each suitable for the type of business and people one is supporting. In our case, we have to support both end users and small and medium sized business. End users in particular - mobile small business owners, tend to have the largest profiles and most diverse mix of installed software. Supporting in-place upgrades is very important in these cases. Finally, in the context of performence only, there is no performance gain from doing a clean install over an in-place upgrade from Windows Vista to Windows 7. Our testing reflects identical performance between those systems upgraded in-place to those with clean installs and regardless of user profile size and mix. Depending upon the mix of profile and installed software, reliability can be an issue, but the upgrade adviser reveals these issues at the time of install.
Grannyville
on Sep 14, 2009
@Waethron Thank you for the tip. Unfortunately, my HP gave up the ghost back in July due to a motherboard failure. However, my dad bought me a MacBook Pro for my birthday to use an university. Now I have the best of both worlds thanks to Boot Camp : ) I'll make a note on your advice for others that are using Windows. Cheers :)
rr0de74@live.com
on Sep 14, 2009
@Waethorn, "Try removing any HP power management utilities before the upgrade". I could not agree more. I will even do a clean install on a brand new PC, just to get rid of this type of crap. For instance HP, Dell and others ship with their Wireless Control software, and 99% of the time is does nothing more (over the Windows wireless software) than eat up disk space and load more .dll's into memory. Plus if not updated it can cause problems. HP, Dell and others need a barebones option when purchasing their products. Just the drivers and nothing else. Heck even the drivers are sometimes out of date. I will often go to Intel, or Real Tek, etc when rebuilding a brand new PC to get the latest drivers and HP and Dell wont have the latest ones for a while.
Waethorn
on Sep 14, 2009
" I've performed clean installs of Windows 7 in 15 minutes, 20 minutes tops, and that's true even in virtual environments" Don't try installing Windows 7 in Virtual PC 2007 SP1 using WDS! Oy vey! Before anybody mentions it, VirtualBox's network drivers aren't even supported by Windows PE (the Intel ones crash and burn because of an incompatibility with the emulated Intel boot firmware that they use, and the AMD ones are obsolete and not supported by Vista or higher - maybe not even XP). Virtual PC 2007 SP1 works, but it's very, VERY slow to install Win7 in it over PXE server. I'd like to try using Windows Virtual PC (the new one) to see if that's rectified, but I would guess it's just too many software links that are slowing it down.
runner7775
on Sep 14, 2009
@rr0de74 "HP and Dell wont have the latest ones for a while." From what I've heard they do some customization of the drivers and such before releasing them. Video drivers are the main ones, though. I do agree with you, they need to speed up the process of releasing the drivers. My dell laptop, less than 1 1/2 years old when vista was released got one official driver for vista in march 2007(performance not great). They never released an update with the later, more mature drivers.
Waethorn
on Sep 14, 2009
@granny: Did you check to see if the HP was under recall? HP had a recall of DV2000, DV6000, DV9000 and Compaq V3000 and V6000 laptops for motherboard failures. There's basically 2 main failures: a) On AMD CPU machine, the Broadcom wireless mini-PCIe card will fail. Not just fail to work, but the motherboard will stop detecting the card altogether, and not even show it as an "Unknown device" in Device Manager. It's like one wasn't even inserted in the motherboard. b) On Intel CPU machines, the problem is much worse. The fans don't spin up properly when the CPU gets too hot (some problem with the temp sensor or something), and the system will overheat, causing heat damage to the board, ultimately resulting in a system that isn't stable, hangs at the BIOS, or worse, fails to power on at all. HP issued a recall on those laptops as an "Extended Warranty Service" which will give you warranty service either a) no more than 2 years after your standard 1 year warranty begins, or b) during your extended warranty service. They had changed the wording of the document though. Originally it was 2 years AFTER the standard warranty. Period. They added the word "begins" which effectively shortened the period by a whole year. It was a known problem though, and it affected tens of thousands of laptops.
Grannyville
on Sep 14, 2009
@Waethron I had that exact problem you mentioned. I had a AMD Turion processor and the mini-PCIe wireless card stopped working. As if it wasn't inserted at all. I swapped it with an HP replacement but didn't resolve the problem. My laptop wasn't part of the recall, unfortunetly. My laptop was a tx1250ea. Plus, I have had problems with the laptop before and have had it repaired at least 3 times before my warrenty expired. Hopefully, I'll have better experience with my new laptop :)
Dipsh t Admin
on Sep 14, 2009
" I used to install Netware 3.x from 35 3.5 inch disks.....that was a PITA." I've done that too. And imagine performing a reinstall in the same night. 1 AM comes a lot quicker than you think.
Logjamming
on Sep 14, 2009
@ lketchum So you mean start over from fresh (like in reinstall OSX and Office) and then gradually log what happens to the system in order to identify the culprit that not only makes Office 2008 as slow as a dead horse on a racetrack, but also identify culprits that 1. don't allow me to drag and drop in a document (everything is OSX is drag and drop) 2. don't allow me to copy paste text in an iChat conversation (nice way for conferencing) 3. don't allow me to copy objects between Office 2008 and earlier versions 4. all of a sudden makes the 'Custom Dictionary' unavailable. I think it's best you keep working with MS products. Most of us have moved on to better stuff that actually works and that we don't get shoved in our throat by software deadlocks made with the likes of Compaq and Dell (Netscape ring a bell? Lotus ring a bell?) and fancy slogans (the wow starts now?)
Waethorn
on Sep 14, 2009
@rrode: I like having video and audio control panels for drivers, but network drivers should never need them, except in the case of VLAN support. For Intel LAN drivers, I use the default settings, which install support for VLAN configuration and network options (in the device properties in Device Manager only), but it doesn't install SNMP support by default. I always prefer having a full uninstall option for drivers too, since the removal program *usually* does a good job at cleaning up left over settings. I never install wireless card applications though, since I find them pointless, since Windows makes it easier and consistent across machines. Windows Update for Windows Vista/7 is much better at keeping drivers up to date than it was in XP too. Unless it's a gaming machine, I usually just grab the drivers on there when I'm servicing a slightly older machine. New systems will get the latest tested drivers though. "From what I've heard they do some customization of the drivers and such before releasing them. Video drivers are the main ones, though." Mostly it's the PnP ID that they customize in the firmware, but the rest of the software is the same. NVIDIA and ATI prefer that laptop manufacturers customize the PnP ID so that they (NVIDIA and ATI) don't need to support the drivers. Most companies still use reference MXM modules for discrete video card options in laptops though, but even with NVIDIA, who now carries up-to-date reference laptop drivers, if your video card doesn't have one of the supported PnP ID's, the video driver won't install unless you modify the script, which will break the Authenticode signature on the drivers. This is all in stark contrast with cards made for desktop PC's, where the chipset makers recommend that card makers use reference designs and PnP ID's instead. I don't know why it is that laptop makers can't come up with a proposed standard. Previous standards haven't been met with much support ("Verified by Intel", anyone?). Intel has a new standard, but they are focussing on mainstream chipsets with new CPU's only, and then only with 14" and 15" laptop sizes. There is no room in their specifications for 12-13", 17" or even 10" netbook sizes. I hate that. Intel says they're working hard, but in the last few years, any proposed "standard" they came up with has failed miserably for them (ever heard of BTX?). I look to Intel as being this pillar for computer technology, but the problem is that manufacturers are deviating from them and yet nobody has the ability to succeed them, which would throw the industry into chaos should they fall. AMD is the closest competitor, but they're still nowhere close to where they need to be to grab hold of the reigns.
rr0de74@live.com
on Sep 14, 2009
@Dipsh t Admin, Windows 3.x was almost as bad, though I think it was something like 15 3.5inch disks. Word Perfect for Windows in the Windows 3.x days the same thing. I remember making a backup copy of the disks first, man what a waste of time.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Sep 14, 2009
rr0de74 If I remember correctly, Windows 3.1 was less than a dozen 3.5" floppies. I remember installing it many, many times in Microsoft University classrooms around the country in the early '90s and with 4 sets of floppys I got to where I could set up a 24 computer classroom in a couple of hours.
runner7775
on Sep 14, 2009
@waethorn I was also under the impression that they usually add hotkey support in the drivers for the specific machines, which shouldn't take much time anyway. Either way, the lack of drivers and general slowness of release of drivers is unacceptable.
EricoF3
on Sep 14, 2009
!! Who want to upgrade anyway??? People have to get the oportunity to reinstall fresh when a new Windows version is realeased... Note @Paul: Really great ITune9 articles!! As we see Zune player Software rules...
Ocean
on Sep 14, 2009
Why is Paul so bitter about Apple? Is he baiting the readers of his site that live in the Apple and the PC world? >>Apple's most fanatical fans relish corporate micromanagement of their lives, and they'll embrace iTunes 9 blindly like the lemmings they are>> Of course Apple centric and non-Apple centric sites have posted generally positive reviews of the software. I suspect Paul is just telling his base what they want to hear.
EricoF3
on Sep 14, 2009
@Ocean: No!! The only reason Apple centric and non-Apple sites have posted generally positve reviews on iTune9 it is because the only compare ITune9 with ITune8!!! Fortunatly, Paul compare ITune9 not only with ITune8 but also with its competor software, and here, I talk about, in particular, the Zune Software ... It always the same thing with Apple and Apple fans and Apple sites ... When a Windows software is released, they always compare it with the Apple equivalent of this software and when an Apple Software is released, they always only compared it with the lasted version of the same software and volontarally omit to compare it with its Windows counter parts, or competitors, like if they are the center of the universe... It is easy to be the best in reviews when you never compared yourself to others... Fortunatly we have the Paul site that compare softwars and some time reveal a Apple soft is bad ( or not so nice) and some times releals that a Windows software is not so nice and vice versa...
panache1023
on Sep 14, 2009
EricoF3, You miss Ocean's point, which is valid.... In my opinion, I don't mind that Paul dislikes iTunes 9...or 8, or whatever. The PROBLEM I have with his review is this crap. "Apple's most fanatical fans relish corporate micromanagement of their lives, and they'll embrace iTunes 9 blindly like the lemmings they are" Give me a break. There's no need for that kind of comment if all he is doing, SUPPOSEDLY, is reviewing an application.
EricoF3
on Sep 14, 2009
@panache said: "In my opinion, I don't mind that Paul dislikes iTunes 9...or 8, or whatever. The PROBLEM I have with his review is this crap. "Apple's most fanatical fans relish corporate micromanagement of their lives, and they'll embrace iTunes 9 blindly like the lemmings they are" Give me a break. There's no need for that kind of comment if all he is doing, SUPPOSEDLY, is reviewing an application." Nooo!! Paul is right! Apple fans always do that like if Apple was a Religion!! The only thing Paul told is Apple fans always miss of autocriticism and auto thinking autonomy and they always follow Apple rules whitout never question Apple softwares... Which is true...
KWRussell
on Sep 14, 2009
@EricoF3 So where is it written that Paul has to be such a mean-spirited SOB when he does? Notice that he always saves his most vile insults for SuperSite features, where readers can't reply, instead of the blog or WinInfo Daily, where readers can hold him accountable on the same page.
Ocean
on Sep 14, 2009
It's in bad taste to bash his users that way. The first paragraph is all about the software. In fact, it says: >>In iTunes 9, Apple has tacked on a number of new features to its media player. And some of them are actually pretty decent.<< And he ended it the same way with an asterisk: >>Rumors that iTunes 9 offers improved performance are simply untrue, and I hope to see Apple completely rewrite this thing from scratch for next year. For now, iPod and iPhone owners can enjoy the vastly improved sync capabilities, while all iTunes users can access the new store design and should at least examine the sharing capabilities.<< That asterisk of course is the off kilter personal attack on the users at the end. it doesn't make sense. He should have stopped with the sentence above.
Ocean
on Sep 14, 2009
Good point KWRussell.
Waethorn
on Sep 14, 2009
@panache: You would only find that comment upsetting if you did indeed fall under this category: "Apple's most fanatical fans" So is that why you're giving a hissy fit?
EricoF3
on Sep 14, 2009
@panache1023: Paul only do this kind of comment in these articles to shake Apple fans and try to let him understand they should open their mind to the world and not just focus on the big Apple logo in front of their eyes....
panache1023
on Sep 14, 2009
EricoF3, NOOOOOO! It is NOT true that people follow Apple like a religion. I know plenty of people that use Apple products, myself included, that have issues with Apple and do NOT "follow them like a religion". You are taking a minority (like Robertsjoe and Ocean) and applying it across the board, and it's frustrating and aggravating. It's pretty HORRIBLE that you sit here and say that crap, and then defend so many of the people on this board that show the same bias towards MS that you criticize others of having towards Apple. The hypocrisy on this board NEVER ceases to amaze me.
EricoF3
on Sep 14, 2009
@Waethorn: "You would only find that comment upsetting if you did indeed fall under this category: "Apple's most fanatical fans" So is that why you're giving a hissy fit?" Yeaaahhh!! you catch it Waethorn!!
panache1023
on Sep 14, 2009
Waethorn, I didn't "give a hissy fit" I was pointing out something that's clearly obvious. It's the same way as soon as someone says something deriding of Canada you are all over that crap. It's bullshit pure and simple. I wanted to read about the merits and de-merits of iTunes 9, not to hear that my wife is a lemming because she uses Apple products. You can't understand that?! Come on! Someone can find fault in rude, obnoxious, unnecessary criticism without having to fall on the extreme side of the spectrum which isn't be attacked.
Ocean
on Sep 14, 2009
>>You would only find that comment upsetting if you did indeed fall under this category: "Apple's most fanatical fans"<< I'm not, but I'm still puzzled over calling anyone who might like the software you're reviewing 'essentially brainless'.
panache1023
on Sep 14, 2009
Wow, you guys are relentless. Paul's comment about the most fanatical Apple fans....the most Fanatical Apple fans would have issues with Paul's opinion on the iTunes Software, not having his ridiculous vitriol spewed throughout what would have otherwise been a good review. Anyone that knows someone that uses Apple products could easily have a problem with their friends / family / loved ones being ridiculed by Paul Thurott, when all they wanted to do was read a review of software.
Ocean
on Sep 14, 2009
>>I know plenty of people that use Apple products, myself included, that have issues with Apple and do NOT "follow them like a religion". You are taking a minority (like Robertsjoe and Ocean) and applying it across the board, and it's frustrating and aggravating.<< I don't use any Apple products except iTunes (I play my music and podcasts on my blackberry now) and I am nothing like Roberts joe...
Waethorn
on Sep 14, 2009
@runner: If you're talking about hotkeys to dim the screen, that stuff is handled by the BIOS, directly to the screen. Windows has functionality for that, but it often relies on power management. So on some systems, Windows requires that video drivers (and most other chipset drivers) be installed and functioning before power management operates correctly. The hardware button calls are usually intercepted by Windows while Windows is loaded though, and without power management set up correctly, it doesn't work. If you're not using Windows, or another OS with power management (say you're booting into DOS), the hardware buttons should still work though. Other buttons, like the multimedia playback buttons ("VCR buttons") should work by default in Windows, but customization options may be left out without having the software installed. Proprietary application buttons may need the software to operate at all (eg. HP Quickplay).
Waethorn
on Sep 14, 2009
"I wanted to read about the merits and de-merits of iTunes 9, not to hear that my wife is a lemming because she uses Apple products." Oh, so she's one of "Apple's most fanatical fans"?
EricoF3
on Sep 14, 2009
@panache1023 said: "NOOOOOO! It is NOT true that people follow Apple like a religion. I know plenty of people that use Apple products, myself included, that have issues with Apple and do NOT "follow them like a religion". You are taking a minority (like Robertsjoe and Ocean) and applying it across the board, and it's frustrating and aggravating. It's pretty HORRIBLE that you sit here and say that crap, and then defend so many of the people on this board that show the same bias towards MS that you criticize others of having towards Apple. The hypocrisy on this board NEVER ceases to amaze me." Effectivally, not all peoples follow Apple like it was a religion!!! If you read carefully my comment, you will see that I don't talk about *People* I talk about *Apple Fans* whitch is *Apple Fanatics* whitch is not including all peoples... So what don't you understand in what I said?? This reaction show probably you are near the *Fanatics* group than in the *People* group... lol

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