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Windows 7: the case for dumping the Start Menu

Jan. 13, 2009 Paul Thurrott | Paul Thurrott's Supersite for Windows

Mike Halsey writes that Microsoft is very likely starting the process of removing the Start Menu from Windows in Windows 7. I think he's right. But here's the thing: Why make Windows 7 a half-way house between the past and the future? If this is a just a vestigial UI construct from the 1990's, why not just remove it completely?

I’ve been wondering if there’s a case for dumping the start menu.

I’ve been petitioning Microsoft to allow the pinning of icons such as Recycle Bin, Computer and Control Panel to the taskbar.

Bravo. Exactly. Why the heck is "Aero Peek" down at the right end of the taskbar (it used to be called Show Desktop and was right next to the Start button)? That should be the Recycle Bin.

If they do this, what’s left in the Start Menu to click on?  All the user folders, Documents, Pictures, Music etc are available from icons or jumplists on the taskbar by default.  This only leaves All Programs and Games.

I believe that if a way can be found to incorporate these into another jumplist or two, ala Apple OS X, then the Start Menu as we know it will be well and truly obsolete, resigned to pretty much just turning the computer off and not much else.

Why am I saying this?  I’m looking at the Start Button in Windows 7 now and wondering when I’m ever going to press it.

If I can put myself in the role of devil's advocate for a moment, I guess I'd just argue that the one reason Microsoft should leave the Start Menu in Windows 7 is muscle memory. Even though I may pin, say, the Firefox button to the taskbar, the truth is, I still reflexively mouse over to the Start Menu (or tap the Windows key) every time I want to run Firefox. This will take a while to get over. And for less sophisticated users, it will be even harder.

Microsoft has gotten rid of the Classic Start Menu in 7. How about making the more modern Start Menu an option (likely used only by businesses and old-timers) and one that is disabled by default? Come on Microsoft, if you're really serious about modernizing the Windows UI, this is the chance to make it happen.

Discuss this Article 110

tayme
on Jan 13, 2009
@mikegalos - "Is Microsoft secretly getting rid of the Start Menu" I still don't see it. Paul opines it this way - "Mike Halsey writes that Microsoft is very likely starting the process of removing the Start Menu from Windows in Windows 7. I think he's right" The closest that I see to that in Mike's article is "Microsoft have an opt-in service to report back on how people use Windows. This will perhaps now report that people only use the Start Menu to shut it down. If this does happen, Windows 8 could be a very different beast to the one we’re used to." In neither case do I see anything about a "secret plot" to get rid of the Start menu. Maybe it is Paul's incorrect translation of Mike's article that has you confused. --tayme
stimshady
on Jan 13, 2009
rather than right click on the icons, is anyone using the left click+push up to access jumplists - really neat & fast.
jpark18
on Jan 13, 2009
I for one agree with Paul, if Microsoft is trying to make Windows 7 a halfway between start menu and no start menu, they should just do away with it all together. Responding to the question about how to do that, it's simple. Use the built-in speech technologies. On Vista, I have used mine for 6+ months and very, very rarely go to the Start menu to select an application. It's as simple as saying 'Start Word' I do also agree that it would be somewhat helpful if it was still in there, but you had to turn it on.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Jan 13, 2009
jpark18 Am I misreading your last sentence? The really top rate but surprisingly unknown Windows Speech Recognition is still in Windows 7. (More about Windows Speech Recognition later)
Lindy
on Jan 13, 2009
WTF is going on with MS. They are turning Windows 7 into OS X. Aero Peak = Epose New Task bar and not start menu = Dock What next MS iLife...or is that Live apps??
mikegalos@msn.com
on Jan 13, 2009
tayme You seriously don't read "Microsoft is very likely starting the process of removing the Start Menu from Windows" as effectively "Is Microsoft secretly getting rid of the Start Menu" ? How? Taking out the qualifiers from the sentence leaves "Microsoft is ... removing the Start Menu from Windows" The two qualifiers ("very likely" meaning "I'm not 100% certain") and ("starting the process of" meaning "not finished" - also implied by the gerund case of remove used in the phrase) don't change the meaning but only qualify the confidence in and progress of the process described. For example, if I said, "robertsjoe is very likely starting the process of studying High School math" it is, despite the qualifiers saying that I think "robertsjoe is studying High School math" :-)
stimshady
on Jan 13, 2009
the start menu is a great place to store all the junk that you don't use regularly, but needs to be stored somewhere... i don't want thousands of apps in my jumplists or on the taskbar (there isnt room for starters), the start menu seems to be a logically place for these things, one little button to hide a whole ton of stuff that never really gets used, (or occassionally gets used).
murdocdv
on Jan 13, 2009
@mikegalos You have missed my point. OS X's Applications list is the equivalent of the Start Menu's All Programs list, both lists are intended for very less frequently used Applications/Programs, users should not have to go in either list on a regular basis. OS X Applications list is more usable because you have unique icons for everything instead of a bunch of folder icons like in All Programs, among other reasons. The OS X Dock replaces the Windows Quick Launch, old Taskbar, and the Start Menu's recent programs (the first list, in Win 7 it defaults to 10 programs). The Dock or 7 Taskbar can fit a large number of Apps/Programs 1 click away, with large icons, making them easier targets and no reading required to disambiguate. If you still want a list of Applications in OS X 2 clicks away rather than the 3 of going through the Finder, you can create any number of Stacks on the Dock which do this, the click equivalent of the Start Menu's recent program list, except the targets are huge compared to the Start Menu . @thingy123 The reason to dump the Start Menu is that even for All Programs, you have tiny icons which translate into targets only ~20px high, and a fixed height and width box. 236px wide x 392px high for the All Programs list. There is just no reason this should be constrained to a size less then the width of the smartphones we use.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Jan 13, 2009
Lindy Microsoft had the equivalent of "Expose" for several years with the Instant Viewer wheel button click on Microsoft IntelliPoint mouse. (If you have a Microsoft Mouse, click the center button (the scroll wheel) The Start Menu isn't going away.
gorath
on Jan 13, 2009
@ Lindy How is aero peek the same as expose? expose is a window switcher (a neat one at that) and aero peek is used to show desktop or to show open windows singularly? New Taskbar is reminiscent of windows 1.01 taskbar as well as the dock. And the start menu ain't gone anywhere (at least for the foreseable future) @Stimshady, the jumplist click-drag thing is pretty cool, especially if you do it really slowly, it has a rather neat little animation. Also, you can click and drag down in IE8 to show history etc.
stimshady
on Jan 13, 2009
@gorath... something weird i have discovered: 1) keep the left click held down throughout ALL of this. 2) left click on IE8 icon 3) push up with mouse to reveal jumplist (keep left click held down) 4) roll back down so cursor is over the IE8 icon (keep left click held down) 5) now, keeping left click held down, right click the mouse and release RIGHT button only. The jump list grows in size (double width) - weird, eh?
DRWAM
on Jan 13, 2009
Yep, I definitely find the Start Menu useful. Keep it and let us continue to customize it to make life easy [less clicks]. Also, it took time, but now I like the Mac OS Dock.
Lindy
on Jan 13, 2009
@gorath I watched a MS video of peek and it was described by the MS person as a Windows switcher. They are not exactly the same but close and will be compared. Most people are not going to remember Windows 1.01 if they ever used it and so if they compare the new changes in the interface, and have touched a Mac its going to be compared to the Mac. Dont get me wrong I REALLY like Windows 7. After using it a few days, once its gone gold I will recommend it to Windows using friends, where I would not Vista. To me its Vista finished/polished, and I have always thought the security for home users that Vista brought was better than XP. The fact that it runs well on a netbook is another plus. Now if they could just copy spaces it would be even better.
tayme
on Jan 13, 2009
@mikegalos - I read that as Paul's incorrect opinion of what Mike Halsey wrote...not what Mike Halsey wrote. I have yet to locate that in Mike's article. I still do not see the "secretly" part of it. Are you seriously saying that Paul thinks that there is a conspiracy at Microsoft to get rid of the Start menu or did you just add that word because you think there is some sort of conspiracy? --tayme
shark47
on Jan 13, 2009
"@gorath I watched a MS video of peek and it was described by the MS person as a Windows switcher. " And so, you added 2 and 2 and inferred that it was copied from Expose. I thought Peek was an easy way to look at the gadgets. "Now if they could just copy spaces it would be even better." Huh?
shark47
on Jan 13, 2009
Microsoft already has two virtual desktop managers. One was an XP Powertoy called "Virtual Desktop Manager" and the other is a tool released by sysinternals: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/cc817881.aspx Yes, they were both copied from Spaces. :-)
mikegalos@msn.com
on Jan 13, 2009
tayme Secretly doesn't mean "There's a conspiracy". It means "This is being done and they haven't said it"
mikegalos@msn.com
on Jan 13, 2009
shark47 For that matter, there was a virtual desktop manager in the Windows 3.0 Resource Kit in 1990. I bet that was copied from Spaces, too! Apparently Mac fans think that Microsoft doesn't just have a photocopier, they have a time machine, too, so they could copy Apple's software and introduce the copy 16 years in the past. :-)
mikeaspatrick
on Jan 13, 2009
Guys please! Calm down! Here's what I see as being the situation. Microsoft have said a couple of years or so ago they wanted a 'new' interface. They're not ready to dump the Start Menu yet as there'd be outcry over the steep learning curve and, after the fiasco with Vista, they MUST sell this OS to businesses. They're just using the taskbar to get everyone accustomed to what is going to replace the Start Menu (probably something along the lines of what Paul and I described). They just bring themselves to give us more of it now, which is annoying from my point of view! There's no conspiracy on the part of Paul or anyone else. Microsoft have made it clear for years now what their intentions are and told me today in an email that my ideas are "Interesting" but not what they're after at this moment in time.
gorath
on Jan 13, 2009
@Stimshady, you're right! very strange. Once you've done that, the list also stays open even if you move your mouse away from it
tayme
on Jan 13, 2009
@mikegalos - So, you added the word for the sake of clarity, then. Gotcha. Now, can you tell me where Mike Halsey states anything close to "Microsoft is [secretly] planning to remove the Start menu." Copy and paste from the linked article...or the one that Mike links in it...I am not seeing it. In fact, it seems to me that it is only Paul and you that seem to think that Mike said that. --tayme
Waethorn
on Jan 13, 2009
"What next MS iLife...or is that Live apps??" Actually, I'd say that MobileMe is a weak ripoff of Windows Live. Windows Live Essentials may rival the features in iLife, but I'd say that the cloud tie-in is much more robust than what Apple currently offers. You can look at the number of compatible partners sites and online services for a good look at how well this stuff interacts with 3rd party stuff.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Jan 13, 2009
tayme I never said Mike Halsey said that. I said he expressed some opinions and people here (including Paul) treated it as though it was a leaked official plan from Redmond.
tayme
on Jan 13, 2009
@mikeaspatrick - Thanks for the clarification. That is pretty much how I took your article, and I agree with you, OSes change regularly and this is the next logical step for Windows. But, it is a hobby of mine to push mikegalos' buttons...mainly because it is fun, and partly because mikegalos likes to put on his Microsoft only blinders in any discussion on Paul's site. I try to look at things with an open mind. --tayme
Sevenmack
on Jan 13, 2009
Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, keep the Start Menu as is. I keep, at most, six icons on my desktop -- and most of those are for items I rarely run anyway (such as shortcuts to menus) or for files I use for storing items that I'm moving to my external hard drive after using (such as executable files). Most of the time, I go to the Start menu, from which I click on my most-used apps -- especially since the most-used apps show up at the left side of Start anyway.Then I click on the right side for Documents and other storage areas. It's easier for me and more importantly, it allows me to find the rarely-used programs that I will eventually use. Now, making it easier for someone like me to pin items to the Start Menu would be great. I can then pick the apps and particular files that I use often or rarely use, but need on occasion. This would make organization easier, but even eliminate those ugly, cartoonish icons that are found on both Windows and Mac. Docks? Those ugly things? Seriously. The dock is the part of OS-X I hate the most. And I find it as useless as some of you find the Start menu.
Sevenmack
on Jan 13, 2009
By the way: Let's consider the reality that, for most people, the Start Menu is the first place they go. As power users, most of us may think that silly (I don't, but that's me). But for the average person, the docks and even the icons are key parts of their working life on computers. The latter is one I hate to admit is a reality, even though I find icons totally useless. Think about what the average person uses before advocating for some change in interface design that is 1) actually more useful than you think, 2) create an unneccesarily steep learning curve for all but the power users and 3) is sort of innocuous for those power users who have other things to obsess about.
tayme
on Jan 13, 2009
@mikegalos - Who, besides Paul, treated it that way? I saw a lot of good idea sharing, questions, and opinions...none of which made me jump to the conclusion that anybody was thinking that it came straight from Redmond. Now, if robertsjoe came on and said "Microsoft is copying the dock again because they know that Windows is dead" then I would agree with you...but that hasn't happened, at least not yet today. --tayme
mikegalos@msn.com
on Jan 13, 2009
Sevenmack Changing anything without a very good reason is often a problem when you have a billion users. As an example, edlin.exe is still around. It doesn't cost much to keep it and there are still a few people who use it (mostly in .cmd batch files). (For those who weren't around in the early MS-DOS days, edlin is a line oriented text editor)
mikegalos@msn.com
on Jan 13, 2009
tayme Since you posted multiple times that I thought so (when clearly I said the opposite), I'll let you practice your reading skills.
DRWAM
on Jan 13, 2009
Speed, security and lower hardware requirements should be paramount, and I'm reading that 7 seems to have achieved most, at least in beta. If security is great, then MS has done well. But we all have such different needs, ideas and demands, that no one could possibly please 1 billion users. So lets hope that most can be fulfilled. But I think that my ideas are better than all of yours and should take precedence;)
mikeaspatrick
on Jan 13, 2009
For those talking about conspiracy theories et al, I've just posted a follow up article for you on my site (hope Paul doesn't mind me linking to it here). http://www.thelongclimb.com/?p=717 Mike Halsey
tayme
on Jan 13, 2009
@mikegalos - "Since you posted multiple times that I thought so..." Not multiple times...in fact, the only time that I posted that you thought so was, "In fact, it seems to me that it is only Paul and you that seem to think that Mike said that. " and if you read closely, you'll notice my preface of "it seems to me", which at that time, it did. I will gladly take that back now. You did not express that you thought that Mike Halsey said that...just "people here (including Paul) treated it as though it was a leaked official plan from Redmond." Now, how about telling me who; besides, in your opinion and mine, Paul; has treated it as though it was leaked from Redmond? --tayme
DavidR91
on Jan 13, 2009
"Microsoft already has two virtual desktop managers. One was an XP Powertoy called "Virtual Desktop Manager" and the other is a tool released by sysinternals: technet.microsoft.com/.../cc817881.aspx Yes, they were both copied from Spaces. :-)" ^ The fact they're third party tools / not integrated is a big disadvantage versus something like spaces though - for example, there are big trade offs with both of them (the sysinternals one spawns multiple explorer processes, for example, and can't show tray icons except on the first desktop. Quite a big disadvantage). Would be pleased to see a fully integrated multiple desktop system in Wn7, but considering we're beta already, I assume it's a big fat no :/
DRWAM
on Jan 13, 2009
It looks as if you can install with Bootcamp and then run with VMware. Also can install with VirtualBox....if any one is interested.
tayme
on Jan 13, 2009
I have never found a good use for Spaces on my Macs, or for a virtual desktop manager in any OS. Just switching windows is easy enough for me. Oddly enough, though...I do like tabbed browsing, and I guess that the two are similar. Maybe I should give it another go. --tayme
chuckb84
on Jan 13, 2009
"The reason for my statement was that we were discussing click counts (a small part of measuring usabilty)" Agree that isn't the whole story. For example, 100 icons on the desktop is one click, but 10 minutes squinting at too many icons. (And fugly besides.) Using Spotlight (or Butler or Launchbar) on OS X as an app launcher is: apple-space (or other command key defined as you wish) w-o-r return And Microsoft Word is launched. I am repeating myself, but I LOVE this method. No clicks, no Fitts law considerations, the interface element is invisible until invoked and then disappears when the task is completed. To forestall comments: This isn't at all like a terminal and the key differences are that there is (1) almost no sense of modality, since the launcher hot key (apple-spacebar) is so quick, (2) the launchers have predictive text recognition, ie, they learn that w-o-r means "Microsoft Word". I don't know if there are similar tools on Windows, but, Mac or Windows, you're missing out if you don't try them. Not everyone like this approach, but I do, and it seems like one suited for experienced users as represented on this board.
puzder
on Jan 13, 2009
Paul I am so confused - you dislike the enhanced toolbar but want to drop the Start Menu. inherently, dropping the Start Menu would require enhancing the Taskbar ... no?
Waethorn
on Jan 13, 2009
"If security is great, then MS has done well. But we all have such different needs, ideas and demands, that no one could possibly please 1 billion users." Here's an opinion from the SBS MVP of the Year: http://msmvps.com/blogs/bradley/archive/2009/01/10/say-no-to-butt-crack.... It's funny, but it's true.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Jan 13, 2009
chuckb48 The equivalent to your example in Windows Vista or 7 is: WindowsKey wor If you tap the Windows Key, the cursor defaults to the search bar.
gkeramidas
on Jan 13, 2009
never wanted to use the start menu that much, that's why i have what i use on the desktop,
shark47
on Jan 13, 2009
From the article mike posted earlier: "Enjoy The Fish. I’m surprised that not many people seem to have caught the subtle joke with the Siamese fighting fish that is part of the default background, so I’ll do my part at keeping the secret hidden. Check out wikipedia for a clue. " I was wondering what that fish was doing in there!
mikegalos@msn.com
on Jan 13, 2009
So, we actually have a Shark asking what that fish is doing there?
mikegalos@msn.com
on Jan 13, 2009
Just as in an FYI, there's a lot more information in the article than just a hint at why there's a fish.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Jan 13, 2009
OT: FYI: Live Mesh will be updating their client later today.
mikegalos@msn.com
on Jan 13, 2009
OT: More about Windows Speech Recognition later today.
DRWAM
on Jan 13, 2009
You're right, I found the reason in the wikipedia, you just need to read between the lines: "Bettas can get constipated when their diet lacks variety"
mikegalos@msn.com
on Jan 13, 2009
"Bettas can get constipated when their diet lacks variety" You mean like running on only one company's hardware?
DRWAM
on Jan 13, 2009
I knew that you would come back with that one. You're getting predictable! So, as they say in Germany, touché! Or was that Spain? Or in Philly, Friggin' aye! Doc PS, I always wanted a blue Betta, as I though it was one of the most beautiful fresh water fish. I just didn't want to leave it alone and didn't really care for the know compatible fish. It looks better with a lighter background.
maati
on Jan 13, 2009
That's French... But actually mike's answer was a good one (and the one you wanted to hear, I guess).
DRWAM
on Jan 13, 2009
I can't believe it, but I found this purely by accident and coincidence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQh5Cx-EuV8 At least I didn't know about it. Go figure!

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