Windows Vista Service Pack 2 Beta

Hell, you know what, a single client version of windows would be fine even.

gorath As you said, there are really only 3 versions of Vista for consumers and really even that's pretty much not true once you realize that 2 of the 3 are specialty products not meant for the general consumer. Vista Home Basic is really only supposed to go on old legacy hardware and minimal PCs like the ones that use XP now (after all, even Doc's $400 laptop can run Premium) Vista Home Premium is the mainstream consumer version of Vista. Probably 95% of users should have this as their version. Vista Ultimate is meant for the limited number of professionals who work in the computer industry and need everything that's available in both the home and corporate versions as developers they can test features no matter who they target for their own product or as IT pros they can work with server admin tools from home. The Mac equivalents are: Home Basic - Buy a new computer from Apple. Home Premium - OS X Ultimate - No comparable product since Apple doesn't even begin to support corporate needs

"Mike, seriously, the amount of versions they offered of Vista, even though in the 'real world', there's only 3, is still too much." And I would agree with that. The old saying goes, "keep it simple, stupid." Even though most consumers will install Home Premium, it still looks confusing. They should have Windows 7 Home, Windows 7 Business, and Windows 7 Ultimate as the three OEM versions.

Now that I think about it, the problem isn't that there are too many versions of Windows Vista, it's that they made all the names too appealing to the general public and OEMs. The confusion would have been eliminated by naming the existing three versions: Windows Vista for Old Computers Windows Vista Windows Vista for Professional Geeks I know I'd buy "Geek Edition"

Having said that, having one version of Windows is stupid. The one size fits all approach may work on the Mac side. It definitely will not work on the PC side. What will a business PC do with MEdia Center? Why does a home PC need Bitlocker or IIS? Apple can sell software for less because they make a lot of money from hardware sales. Microsoft is a software company, primarily. It's just not the same. Moreover, Apple caters to one market. People who want white computers with OS X installed. Microsoft caters to at least two distinct markets.

Wae I haven't used it yet but most of the Windows Rally stuff is very cool.

@gorath: "full PC backup" Home users are more likely to get viruses (9/10 times because of their own ignorance or stupidity). Full backup is a mistake. "dynamic RAID" Compared to what? How many home users use RAID after all?! Go ahead and prove it - I build computers for a living. Besides that, the few customers that have will have used Intel Matrix Storage on systems I've built (and that's not very many, mind you). Show me an iMac that you can do RAID on anyway...they only support single hard drives! "full user account security controls" ??! You mean UAC? Sorry to say but that's the same. You mean domain-join? Show me a home user with a server running as an Active Directory Domain Controller and we'll talk. "bitlocker" Again, show me a home user that needs full-drive encryption and we'll talk. Does OS X even support hardware-assisted full-drive encryption? I think not. MacBooks don't ship with TPM chips after all.

@sharky: Let's not forget that stuff like the kernel, Apache, and lots of stuff I'm forgetting, doesn't cost Apple a cent in R&D....

Me, I'm not as opposed to Vista Home Basic as some. I see it as the logical successor to XP on low-powered Netbooks and Nettops. It's the Windows-Alternative-Alternative. Vista without the extra media features such as DVD support and Media Center - 2 totally unnecessary components on systems designed for internet services and lacking optical drives. Load up Windows Live, and you've got a nice Windows computer that gives you a more modern, more secure platform for web services than XP. Aero in Vista Home Premium is just gravy, but small UMPC-style devices still can't do it.

gorath, the OS X portion of my post was not aimed at you. It was aimed at people who say Windows should have one version because there's one version of OS X. Anyway, read Ed Bott's post that I linked to and you'll see why three versions are required.

and shark, the OSX retort wasn't aimed at you, it was for Waethorn, who completely flipped his lid, and assumed I was an i-hole back then.

"Waethorn and shark, seriosu question, what's wrong with using the "n" version for netbooks and the like and ditching home basic?" I don't like their naming convention anyway. Microsoft has the habit of coming up with the worst possible names. Windows 7 is a good start. I hope they continue this simplicity with the product versions, instead of something like Windows 7 Home Basic Netbooks. Something tells me they won't.

shark47 "In fact, they even have a version of Office for people that like white computers with a lighted fruity logo and OS X installed." Nonsense. It's not a version of Office specific to people that like white computers with a lighted fruity logos running OS X. It's also good for people that like aluminum computers with lighted fruity logos running OS X.

Again, READ Ed Bott's post, please. READ it. It's obvious from your rant that you haven't. By the way, how many Joe plumbers buy Windows Server 2008?

I read it. He states there are two real reasons. 1. Price for PC vendors with a list of what he guesses they are paying for different version of Vista now. His theory is that the price for one version would be $90 more than the lowest version, driving the cost of that $400 Acer everyone loves up to $490. I think if MS had one version they would save a bundle on all of the work, records, packaging, support etc that come with having so many versions. 2. How to separate consumer and business features. That is what I explained, with my Windows 2008 points. Maybe you should READ my post again. I am not suggesting anyone buy Windows Server 2008 I am saying that Vista and 2008 server are same OS/Kernel and Microsoft has shown via 2008 that its possible to start with a stripped down version (Home Basic) and add features until you get the full deal (Ultimate) all in one package. Not only is it doable, but they give you some serious fine grain control over it. Perhaps its above you technical pay grade and you just don't get it.

"Microsoft ad agency screwed up and posted a wrong picture on one page of their website which Microsoft apologized for and pulled after it had been up for less than a week in October 2002." Posted the wrong picture? What sort of an excuse is that? They are supposedly telling the real life story of a happy switcher from Mac to PC (they don't exist BTW), and they "posted a wrong picture". Do you actually believe that? They got a stock photo of some stranger and used that. That's lying. That's deception. That's Microsoft.

"2. How to separate consumer and business features. That is what I explained, with my Windows 2008 points." Yes, and it proves that you don't get it. A componentized OS is where Windows is headed anyway, but being a software company, they cannot afford to charge only $20 for the base OS and provide everything as a free add-on. Again, Apple is a hardware company and can even afford to sell its OS for nothing because they make the money on the hardware anyway. Microsoft can not. Is that too difficult for you to understand or are you simply playing dumb? Let me repeat it: Apple is a hardware company. Microsoft is not. So, Microsoft will have to end up charging for each software component, but because most consumers don't pay separately for the OS and it comes preinstalled on the PC, people will complain. And you guys (yes, the Mac guys) will make a big deal about how Microsoft doesn't treat its customers well and so on... Perhaps stupidity is above my pay grade.

From Ed Bott's article: "Currently, Microsoft has a tiered pricing system for Windows. For OEM copies sold with a new PC (and remember, that’s how 9 out of 10 copies are sold), that price is buried in the cost of the system and isn’t broken out. But for the sake of argument, here are my best estimates of how much each Windows Vista edition adds to the cost of a new PC: Home Basic $20 Home Premium $60 Business $130 Ultimate $190 Microsoft brings in a steady stream of revenue from this current mix, revenue that is the biggest part of its bottom line. If you were to replace those four editions with a single edition for a single price, my back-of-the-envelope calculation says the new price would have to be in the neighborhood of $90. That would add $70 to the cost of entry-level PCs, many of which are currently being sold to budget -conscious businesses with Vista Home Basic. For a $400 bare-bones PC, that’s a 17.5% price increase. Yikes! The good news is that this pricing scheme would mean a price reduction for those currently choosing Vista Business and XP Pro. In other words, big business would pay less. As far as I’m concerned, anyone who calls for a single edition of Windows is advocating reverse socialism, a transfer of costs to consumers and small businesses from large corporations. I vote no on that proposal." I'm not the one calling you a socialist here, bettie. Don't shoot the messenger.

Oh Mike you kill me. Open a command prompt on Vista SP1 and then on Windows SERVER 2008, what version do you see? Let me just cut to the chase for you, 6.0.6001 Effing amazing they are the same!! Vista Pre SP1 was 6000 or as I like to refer to it Windows 2008 RC2. So yes genius they are the same. Microsoft has been doing that since NT. 2008 can load every feature of Vista, and Vista could if Microsoft allowed it to be, bolt on the same stuff that 2008 does like DHCP, DNS, DFS etc. Just look at the reliability monitor, the control panel, the icons etc its all the same. You can subscribe to/forward event logs of another computer with what two operating systems made by MS, Vista and 2008. Maybe its above your technical pay grade??? I did not say the could sell it for the same price. I repeated what Bott said, IT WOULD COST $90 more. Would having one version save Microsft money? With out a doubt. It would save all of their vendors as well. Having all of those Vista skews that have to be tracked in a database at MS, Dell, HP, Acer, Toshiba, Bestbuy, CompUSA, Office Max and on and on and on. Go to Dell or any other hardware site to download a driver, and someone at those places has to break up the Versions and track them. Packaging, DVD's, boxes, documentation, knowledge base articles, testing new software and hardware, web sites that explain the version differences, sales material....all of it could be vastly reduced with one version. Would it save enough money to make up for the higher price of the single OS? Probably not. Then again maybe you just pass that cost along to your vendors, or meet them halfway since one version makes their life easier in many ways. Thats not even mentioning that all versions of Vista probably have the same bits, just they are crippled in various ways if the are not the ultimate version. Which means that MS has turned off features and has given you no choice to turn them on unless you pay for them, so again it can technically be done. To your comment about someone owning a Domain, please I worked for a firm that specialized in SBS2000/2003 that supported small companies for 4 years. A law firm would drop 10k on just hours of implementation of a SBS2003 server and 10 clients, plus the cost of a new server from Dell and MS software. Then latter on want a notebook or new PC and then you quote them through their Dell account and they dont like the price. Next thing you know they are calling you up to setup a PC they just bought the night before at Bestbuy that has XP home or Vista Premium on it, all proud they got it cheaper than the quote you gave them, only to be told they need to upgrade the OS because we cant join it to the domain. These are not large corporations where IT actually has a say on what goes on. You give them advice and often it goes in one ear and out the other. They learn fast after a few times. Honestly Mike I admire you. Most everyone that posts here cant stand your arrogant, pompous, know it all ass and yet you keep coming back for more. If you have a wife, either your are the most PW guy on the planet, or your wife is being considered for saint hood by the Pope as I type. Shark....I am not going to even waste my time.

@robertsjoe - "Holy cow! It's now official. Microsoft fanboys are the worst, most annoying, most blind of all groups of fanboys." Actually, you are wrong...the extremists on both sides are equally annoying. You with your incessant whining about something that you admit you don't like. Lindy and Ocean with the equally annoying random posts about little snippets that they seem to think shine a bad light on Microsoft. @mikegalos - if you'd like a couple of examples of your arrogance see above, where you type; "First off, what's Windows 2008?" - I am pretty sure you know what the poster was talking about. "Oh, and it's "losing" not "loosing". They're different words and mean different things." - Its a typo...but again, I think that you knew that. In fact, you had your own here - "...killing the Mac Book and Mac Book Air so they'd only have one laptop (Mac Book Pro with all the option)." Look for the missing s. Oh, and just because I know that you insist on it...please source the following information or retract it - "Microsoft ad agency screwed up and posted a wrong picture on one page of their website which Microsoft apologized for and pulled after it had been up for less than a week in October 2002." Hell, I think that DRWAM and I are the only ones that add any balance to these discussions...because neither of us is blinded by an illogical passion for an operating system. We use what we like and what gets the job done for the task at hand. It just happens that we find uses for or enjoy parts of both Windows and OS X. Its Friday night and I just got done monitoring a deployment...vacation time starts now. Don't get too out of hand over the next week...Doc, just keep reminding them of that cheap Acer you bought and subsequently caused me to recommend to my sister and your Mac Pro and iPhone. It sounds like you enjoy them all! --tayme

"Fair enough, ***. :-)" That was A$$h0le, in case you didn't get it. Note the smiley. It was a joke. Just like the Mac ads. On topic or whatever the topic of discussion is: It makes more sense for MS to separate the consumer and business OSs, because the needs are totally different. In fact, I don't think businesses even need Aero glass effects. Ed Bott explains clearly (in a very non-snarky manner) why a$90 OS would amount to socialism. I do agree with Bott that the demarcation was not done well in Vista and appears arbitrary. Also, I think the naming convention was atrocious. tayme, you're probably right. I probably wouldn't be commenting here otherwise and definitely wouldn't waste a Friday night trying to reason with fanatics. I probably should ignore remarks from people like bettie, robert, lindy, ocean, and drylight, among others. There are users like john, who are at least usually more reasonable. The problem with arguing with fanatics is that because they refuse to cede ground, you too hate to concede points to them. So, instead of being a discussion, it's more of a shout fest, where each side tries to out yell the other. (Think Hannity vs. Olbermann.) I'm usually more reasonable and have purchased Apple's products in the past (even an iPod Touch recently, that I like). :-) I do realize that people like bettie and robertsjoe won't see reason and should probably stop trying to forece them to do so. It only makes me stoop to their level.

@shark47: See reason? The Windows fanboys commenting here and in other blogs are the most unreasonable and unrealistic around. Blinded by the Borg.

Tayme "Oh, and just because I know that you insist on it...please source the following information or retract it - "Microsoft ad agency screwed up and posted a wrong picture on one page of their website which Microsoft apologized for and pulled after it had been up for less than a week in October 2002."" The source is the CNet article link that robertsjoe posted as proof that "Microsoft are liars and thieves." Guess you didn't follow the link and just jumped to the assumption that the MS Fanboy was lying. And, apparently, you think an accurate quote with an incorrect picture on a website for a few days six years ago and pulled when the error was known and apologized for when the error was known is a worse failing than a multi-year, multimillion dollar smear campaign, too, since I don't see you objecting to the charge that "Microsoft are liars and thieves" as a characterization for the screw up...

actually robertsjoe (or whatever your real name is since you insist that public statements carry the same weight as a driver's license and I doubt your license says robertsjoe), using stock images with testimonials is not only not stealing it's also common practice in advertising. My parents, for example, did some modeling for a photographer who wanted stock footage with keywords music and couple and senior for his book. Their picture was used in an ad over someone elses endoresment for some product. Just thought I'd correct your accusation that a crime had been committed. Now, libel, such as saying your competitor stopped doing maintenance work on an ongoing commercial product when they'd done noting of the sort (see the topic of this thread) is an actual crime. Whether Apple is guilty is a matter for the courts should Microsoft feel it's worth pressing charges. See the difference. One is a violation of the law, the other is somebody you hate doing something you don't like making you angry. And, contrary to your apparent view, your likes and dislikes do not contstitute the law in any jurisdiction I'm aware of. Oh, and whether it was a mistake or intentional is something you'd only know if you were on the team at the ad agency that screwed up. Were you?

A couple of points here. I believe the SP2 has a nice start and it will be interesting to see what happens when we get to the RTM version. Like all operating systems, whether it be Apple or Microsoft, the OSes are works in progress that are constantly evolving. I've been watching this tit for tat over Vista and its various version. To some degree, I kind of agree that with Vista, Microsoft went overboard with the multiple SKUs. That I will not defend. However, one thing I've really noticed about some consumers, is that many don't bother to do research and homework before making computer purchases. Instead of blaming Microsoft for connecting to certain work domains, how about taking some personal responsibilty as a consumer? The information on every OS has been published for awhile now. Instead of just walking into a store blindly, take a few mintues to educate yourself on the pros and cons of what you're about to buy? I've noticed the best consumers are the ones who up their IQ on the products before they walk in the store. There are so many ways to do this. People research before they buy cars. The same goes buying a home. Whether you walk into Fry's or the Apple Store, a lot of those guys don't know jack. Apple Store guys constantly and unfairly blame Windows for somethings that are vendor driver issues. Its becoming a tired and irrelevant argument. Fry's people are just as clueless but on occassion I've run into someone who knows a thing or two. However, since most sales persons are intelligently educated enough on their products, its really up to the consumer to make wise decisions. I also disagree with simplifying Windows down to two versions. Both Microsoft and Apple go out of their way to cater to the average user. The problem becomes that how do you really define average? Its like trying to define normal. One person's normal setup might be the next guys abnormal setup. Yes, there are plenty of studies about what the average user does. I believe its the diversity of setup that is one of Window's key strength. The Server Versions are now pretty much their own exclusive lines. However, I do think it does need to be simplified to a Consumer, Business, and a Superset of both lines. 3 simple SKU's. You could go Home, Professional, Ultimate. Within the 3 SKU frame work, you could activate features such as Windows Media Center, Internet Explorer, Windows Media Player, etc. Since we are talking about a Service Pack, which also deals with vulnerabilities and bug fixes, I noticed a rather interesting fact from Secunia.com. For just this year in 2008, OS-X has 794 vulnerabilties. Windows Vista in 2008 has had only 71. Yet we have all these people claiming quite dubiously that OS-X is a superior operating system, yet the facts seem to indicate that it has the most problems? I ran across it today, as I frequently check with Secunia to the the state of the OS. Also, Secunia is reporting for 2008, 46 Vista Advisories compared with 124 for OS-X. There's no dout that Apple really does some great things. OS-X has some tremendous strengths. I would be quite comfortable using one. If I didn't have to take a loan out, I'd would definitely purchase one. We honestly know about the real and genuine issues with Vista and XP. But seriously, this cannot be understated. Tiger and Leopard are looking like XP and 2000 a few years ago. Tiger and Leopard being patch at a more frequent rate, for some really fundamental problems that have never been tolerated on the Microsoft side. Yet Apple still has a culture of quiet, no beta programs, and a disturbing base that makes me question their humanity or their values. I really do love a lot of the services and products that come out of Culpertino. I've been using a lot of the software, computers, and consumer products for awhile now. I just want them to admit their base needs a reality check, many of the products need a restart from scratch, and that they need to be more forthcoming. Other than that, I have tremendous respect and love for Apple. Maybe this economic downturn will force them to make a consumer line favorable to the working class. Probably not, but a guy can always dream.